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What are peoples view on the ALRC and the events they run?


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I did think of posting this in the comp section. But it's a little quiet in there, and also wanting to get opinions from those that maybe don't compete.

It is my hope that most of you know of the ALRC. For those that don't, it's the Association of Land Rover Clubs.

Back in the day it had very close ties with the Rover car company. And today is still a large association.

The ALRC comprises of many smaller clubs, across the world, although most in the UK. Chances are, there is a local Land Rover club to you, that is an ALRC affiliated club.

Being part of the ALRC means clubs can run competitive events, under MSA permits. Typically events are:

RTV - Road Taxed Vehicle trials -- These are your normal every day Land Rovers.

CCV - Cross Country Vehicle trials -- More extreme, often purpose built and requiring safety equipment like roll cages

Comp Safari - Off road racing -- Requires MSA competition licence and vehicles meeting safety standards

The ALRC has a comprehensive rule book (The Greenbook), which ties in closely with the MSA's Bluebook.

What I've love to know is:

  • What do you think of the ALRC in general and the events they run?
  • Are you an active competitor at ALRC events?
  • If not, would you be interested in trying them out?
  • Constructive criticism or where you think they should be changing
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I'd like to do some ALRC trials in something closer to LR's original spec. But I'm not really in the position to have another vehicle and my 90 probably won't be eligible due the mods.

If your mods are similar to your build thread opening post, then you'd certainly be fine at club events. You wouldn't be able to use the locker while competing, but having it fitted wouldn't prevent you attending.

http://cvlrc.co.uk/

Might be fairly close depending where in Oxfordshire you are. You'd be welcome to come and have a go and see what you think of it.

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If your mods are similar to your build thread opening post, then you'd certainly be fine at club events. You wouldn't be able to use the locker while competing, but having it fitted wouldn't prevent you attending.

http://cvlrc.co.uk/

Might be fairly close depending where in Oxfordshire you are. You'd be welcome to come and have a go and see what you think of it.

That is incorrect, as a member club of the ALRC you are bound to their regulations which specifically forbid the fitment of lockers. The MSA view of this is that, as you are running as an ALRC club you are in breach of MSA regulations and your permit to allow competitors to run vehicles that do not comply with ARC regulations.

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  • What do you think of the ALRC in general and the events they run?
  • Are you an active competitor at ALRC events?
  • If not, would you be interested in trying them out?
  • Constructive criticism or where you think they should be changing

The ALRC is the Land Rover equivalent of Europe, it's a fine idea in principal but when you get down to it most of the member clubs use it as a flag of convenience and don't actually abide by the rules they agreed to when they joined. Many of the technical regulations that the ALRC make mandatory for all club events are either outdated, badly applied or badly thought out. They were designed by committees that, in many cases, have no technical experience. In the worst cases the rules were created by members who have never competed.

No, I am no longer a competitor at ALRC events because my Defender doesn't comply with ALRC regulations although it fully complies with MSA regulations.

Not really, been there, done that, there are far better clubs that are not members of the ALRC that do a better job without getting worked up over relocation cones etc... (relocation cones are also against ALRC regs)

If the ALRC wants to change, the first thing it needs to do is make it clear to member clubs that their regulations are NOT optional. Too many ALRC clubs run events that do not comply with the regulations, see post above as an example. Once all the clubs actually abide by the regulations the ALRC can then start to remove some of the sillier ones because the clubs that ignore those regulations at the moment will suddenly have a reason to help change things, instead of passing stupid regulations without a thought at council.

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For Staffordshire I would say this thread is ten years too late :)

The Staffordshire & Shropshire Land Rover club only exists because all its comps are open permit. That is a logical dodge because things aren't like they were when I first went to their events in 1977. The problem is that trailing events around here could have involved zukes and all sorts and gained a non land-rover following as well. But that option has now gone. It means the trials my dad did around here just don't happen due to numbers.

I wouldn't mind doing some ALRC trials with S&S, but a standard rear cross member and bumper aren't going to last more than half an hour in winch challenge. So I have a 1972 RRC buggy that can't do ALRC events without some fairly serious fabrication work. That's a bit sad.

Current ALRC comps have also killed the sport. To be unfair to it, the event is now grass-tracking. Originally it was a timed rally stage made by connecting all the trials sections together. If you hit 20 miles an hour you were doing well ! My truck would be excellent fun at that traditional style comp, but it's no flat racer because of it's weight.

When I can get time I take the beast and marshal at S&S comps. It's a chance to get out in the fresh air and chill.

For winch challenge we use Viking club for the odyssey-series maybe three times a year.

For trialing we go to Shropshire Off Road Club when we can. They are a great bunch, it's an easy run on the M54 to do them and we get our ass kicked every time we go :)

For competing the ALRC isn't floating my boat.

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That is incorrect, as a member club of the ALRC you are bound to their regulations which specifically forbid the fitment of lockers. The MSA view of this is that, as you are running as an ALRC club you are in breach of MSA regulations and your permit to allow competitors to run vehicles that do not comply with ARC regulations.

This isn't exactly correct. Yes you are bound by the regulations, however the regulations clearly state you can do this:

B.17. AXLE DIFFERENTIALS B17.1. Lockable axle differentials may be fitted on condition they are disabled in an unlocked state to the satisfaction of the scrutineers and not used during competition.

http://www.alrc.co.uk/Handbook/2015/regulations/Competition%20Rules%20&%20Regs%202015.pdf

So pleased don't dissuade anyone from attending, just because their have some air lockers fitted.

There are also other exceptions and SR's that may be present, that will allow other vehicles to enter. Some events will also be run on an open MSA permit, so will allow completely non ALRC spec vehicles to enter.

So it's always worth checking if you interested :)

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Why can't they run something alongside for a highly modified vehicle?

...I couldn't b bothered with competing, but it may be nice to go round the course...

May open up another avenue and gain other interest and improve interest...

2p, hat coat + tin helmet & sandbags

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Why can't they run something alongside for a highly modified vehicle?

...I couldn't b bothered with competing, but it may be nice to go round the course...

May open up another avenue and gain other interest and improve interest...

2p, hat coat + tin helmet & sandbags

We went through that battle before we left the ARC and created a new club as a result of exasperation at the imposition of regulations and the lack of any compromise, that was 16 years ago now, in many ways the ALRC regulations are more restrictive now than they were then. There are many clubs outside the ALRC (there are actually more MSA off road and Land Rover clubs outside the ALRC than in it) that offer the same events (and more) without the constant input from the rivet counters. There are clubs that cater for all levels of competition and all marques although Land Rovers pretty much dominate in most of them.

B.17. AXLE DIFFERENTIALS B17.1. Lockable axle differentials may be fitted on condition they are disabled in an unlocked state to the satisfaction of the scrutineers and not used during competition.

That's good, it does beggar the question though, why allow uprated diffs but not allow spring relocation devices and extended bump stops ? You're allowed to upgrade the diff but not half shafts or drive members ? You can change steering linkages though, It's all a bit random really.

There are also other exceptions and SR's that may be present, that will allow other vehicles to enter. Some events will also be run on an open MSA permit, so will allow completely non ALRC spec vehicles to enter.

At a limited number of events per year (8), sanctioned by the ALRC secretary in writing, you'll let people compete at ALRC club events as long as they are not a member of an ALRC club. Members of an ALRC club can only compete in the same vehicle if they are also a member of a none ALRC club... you really couldn't make that up. If someone turns up on the day who has, say, oversize poly bump stops, they can compete as long as they are a member of an invited club. What do you do if they're not a member of an invited club, get them to fill out a membership form for another club so they can compete at your events ??? Does the invited club get any say in the matter ?

IMV if the ALRC don't want to allow modifications outside those sanctioned by the council then it is disingenuous to then suggest to people that they can take part in ALRC events anyway whilst at the same time not allowing them to join an ALRC club or forcing them to join a none ALRC club as well. If you don't want the vehicles taking part then just man up and say so and stop trying to pretend that you're doing people a favour by letting them compete at your events when you don't actually want them as members. If you're not getting the numbers to your events it's because your regulations suck and it's about time you kicked the rivet counters out of the competition decisions and fixed the problem. The whole "privilege" events thing is just a bandaid to try and cover over the cracks and if you remove that bandaid you may find that the clubs actually start to push for regulation changes.

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I used to be a member of the Hants And Berks as did Nige HfH, I found this a great social club but only used my S1 to set out one trial.

I found the rules to be ridiculous, you can build an S1 coiler (a car that never existed in Land Rover) but can't build a 100" a vehicle that did! My reason for irritation was a minor thing, I never drive my S1 with door tops fitted period, to compete I must fit them but a 90 can have the windows down. To be fair I guess I could smash the glass/plastic windows out of the door tops! Strangely if you look at the 50xs and 60s photos they have no upper bodywork at all so this may be a H&S issue nowadays?

The rules on construction are I belive a legacy of the association with LR and its support therefore it must promote std LR products and not criticise them ie. A LR needs diff locks when LR say otherwise or stronger halfshafts etc.

One thing the ALRC is good at is std vehiclle trials such that the damage risk is under your control (your driving) and not over the top routes which other clubs used to do?

Marc

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That's good, it does beggar the question though, why allow uprated diffs but not allow spring relocation devices and extended bump stops ? You're allowed to upgrade the diff but not half shafts or drive members ? You can change steering linkages though, It's all a bit random really.

I'm not defending the rules. But I hope I can shed some light and rational on this.

1. The intention is that it is meant to be "Land Rover". And thus far Land Rover have never sold a vehicle with things like dislocation cones. That's why these items have previously been not allowed. However there is a wind of change that things may be very different (although very late to the party).

2. In terms of diffs and shafts. You can uprate them. On a rational level, nobody would be able to know what half shafts you are running, they wouldn't be checked at any even and would likely be hard to impossible to identify anyhow. But on a more reasonable note, the ALRC allows like for like parts. A HD half shaft is not a different design to a standard one, so is perfectly acceptable. There is a reg stating this (I can reference it if you want it). Really the only things the ALRC doesn't allow are items of different design, e.g. cranked trailing arms. But you are perfectly allowed to run beefed up HD trailing arms. (again this is likely to be changing).

At a limited number of events per year (8), sanctioned by the ALRC secretary in writing, you'll let people compete at ALRC club events as long as they are not a member of an ALRC club. Members of an ALRC club can only compete in the same vehicle if they are also a member of a none ALRC club... you really couldn't make that up. If someone turns up on the day who has, say, oversize poly bump stops, they can compete as long as they are a member of an invited club. What do you do if they're not a member of an invited club, get them to fill out a membership form for another club so they can compete at your events ??? Does the invited club get any say in the matter ?

The ALRC don't actually run the events per-say. Individual clubs do and each club can run 'x' number of open events per year.

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I'm not defending the rules. But I hope I can shed some light and rational on this.

1. The intention is that it is meant to be "Land Rover". And thus far Land Rover have never sold a vehicle with things like dislocation cones. That's why these items have previously been not allowed. However there is a wind of change that things may be very different (although very late to the party).

2. In terms of diffs and shafts. You can uprate them. On a rational level, nobody would be able to know what half shafts you are running, they wouldn't be checked at any even and would likely be hard to impossible to identify anyhow. But on a more reasonable note, the ALRC allows like for like parts. A HD half shaft is not a different design to a standard one, so is perfectly acceptable. There is a reg stating this (I can reference it if you want it). Really the only things the ALRC doesn't allow are items of different design, e.g. cranked trailing arms. But you are perfectly allowed to run beefed up HD trailing arms. (again this is likely to be changing).

I suspect I know quite a bit about the "rational" behind the current regulations, I was involved in ARC committees when the "policy document" was first floated over 17 years ago now. A policy document that was penned by someone who had never competed, had never scrutineered a vehicle and the one time he thought about entering an RTV was "intimidated by having to compete against vehicles with roll cages". How that policy document was allowed to turn into regulations without the support or votes of the competing clubs was a mystery to me. Many of the clubs that stayed in the ARC afterwards simply ignored the regulations, those that took them up saw entry numbers drop through the floor. I have no idea what happened after that within the ARC, I resigned my position and went off to help form an independent club that offered exactly the same events we'd run with the ARC club but without all the petty rules and regulations.

1. Land Rover have never fitted MSA roll cages or built 80 inch coil sprung series 1s with power steering either. Come to that, they never put a TDi and power steering into a Series III :) Back in the day we used to use jubilee clips or large tie wraps on the top of springs to stop them dislocating, Land Rover never did, is that allowed at ALRC events now ? I guess not, you just have to use a hi-lift after each section to pop the spring back in again I guess.

I'd take it one step further and suggest that you take a look at the Discovery 2 suspension design. Both the front and rear incorporated features that were developed by ARC competitors years before Land Rover adopted them. When the Disco 2 was launched I went to a dealership and had a look underneath, it was like looking under one of the top ARC comp motors at the time. that sort of innovation has gone from the ALRC, regulated out of existence by people with no interest in motor sport, more interested in counting rivets than competition or even a broader enthusiasm for the Land Rover marque. I honestly believe that Land Rover were influenced by the improvements being made by ARC competitors to improve handling and unsprung weight issues.

2. The regulations clearly state that anything not listed as being allowed to be modified isn't allowed to be modified. HD shafts are a different design to any of the originals, often with a different spline count and different drive flanges. HD prop shafts are often a different design too, using a completely different sliding joint design to any LR design. I keep coming back to the same point, you can't have it both ways. To quote the regulations you posted...

A .1. As a general principle in all vehicle regulations, it is prohibited to carry out any tuning or modification that is not specifically permitted. The fact that some modifications are mentioned as prohibited does not imply that others are allowed.

As there is no mention in the regulations of none Rover designed axle components being allowed, I would interpret that as suggesting that HD shafts and drive flanges are not allowed, especially as they use a different design to the original. Obviously you can choose to interpret it differently if it suits you but then you're relying on the scrutineer at the event to take the same view.

The ALRC don't actually run the events per-say. Individual clubs do and each club can run 'x' number of open events per year.

ALRC members are not allowed to compete in a none ALRC spec vehicle, even at an ALRC club's "open" event, as a member of an ALRC club regardless of who applied for the permit. Any ALRC club still applying for any permits through the ALRC is almost certainly missing out on the MSA rebate which, in recent years, has been quite a substantial percentage of the permit fees.

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Dave W, for someone who keeps mentioning petty rules and obviously has a strong dislike for the ALRC. You do seem to keep making a lot of sweeping statements, many rather petty in your own interpretation of what you are obviously hoping the rules say.

I'm not here to argue with you over the rules. They are freely available on the web for any who want to read them. However in the interests of constructive discussion. Maybe it's best to not sweepingly dismiss things, without a fuller picture.

Let me assure you, and anyone else who might be interested. That you would be more than welcome to turn up to an ALRC event with HD driveshafts and compete. The rules clearly allow this and such things have been discussed numerous times by the ALRC council and scrutineering committee.

I do however appreciate any other feedback anyone wants to share or offer.

And events run with an open permit allow competitors to run non ALRC vehicles, even if they are ALRC members. They are just entering into a different class.

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DaveW ,

That's interesting what you say about innovations born in ARC club level completion finding it's way into new LandRover product's , I always thought the 110 and then the 90 came about several years after there were coiled LandRover hybrid's within ARC clubs and the AWDC , road going and competition .

I gave up ARC competition in '89/90 after 6 years working on the ARC committee and getting nowhere with modernising the competition arena , and done similar to you and went off and was part of the setting up group for an allcomers 4x4 club running CCVT's and RTV's which was more interesting seeing different vehicles and meeting a much broader group .

The ALRC clearly caters for many people that are satisfied with the way it works , that does not mean it's optimal ..........what optimal means is where we start to get bogged down , pun intended

cheers

Steveb

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Sorry if you feel I'm being petty but you posted the regulations, not me. I hadn't seen a recent example until you posted them and I am simply trying to interpret them based on the information you supplied and what would be required to comply with the regulations as you supplied them and as they are written down.

Remember my first response to your question...

If the ALRC wants to change, the first thing it needs to do is make it clear to member clubs that their regulations are NOT optional. Too many ALRC clubs run events that do not comply with the regulations, see post above as an example. Once all the clubs actually abide by the regulations the ALRC can then start to remove some of the sillier ones because the clubs that ignore those regulations at the moment will suddenly have a reason to help change things, instead of passing stupid regulations without a thought at council.

You did ask for people's opinions and if you want everyone to smile nicely and tell you you're doing a good job maybe you shouldn't have asked for people's views on the ALRC :)

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Got to agree with Dave if you don't want to here people opinions don't ask the question!.

If you don't agree quote regulations back that prove otherwise.

I left my local ALRC club when it got to much being run for certain people with rules interpreted there way and events run for them.

Like a previous person I always drove my series 1 with no door tops but had to fit them to do a RTV, I was ordered to stop in the end when someone noticed I had parabolic springs fitted which were apparently against the rules (still kept the entrance fee though), wouldn't have minded to much but there were people competing in the same RTV with coil sprung 80" space frames which is more original?. I also found the RTV events were getting set up for coiled sprung caged vehicles, sometimes you had to lean on trees to get through gates and seeing people roll vehicles wasn't uncommon, that sort of thing is fine for a CCV event but I always though RTV you should be able to compete as a novice in a car and be able to drive it to work the next day. Maybe make the last couple of gates hard for those out to win but a stock vehicle should be able to drive the first half and then pull out if they don't want to risk dents and as such have a fun day.

The comp safari got so competitive it wasn't possible for a new driver to go out, I know one person who bought a second hand comp racer a went to his first event with the idea of having fun, organisers new he was on his first event but rather than give a bigger gap to the next person let one of the fast drivers out straight after him who end up catching him and getting Mildly miffed off, they then did the same every other lap, he ended up getting rammed off the course into a tree in the end by someone after they caught him up, when he complained he was told it was his fault he should have pulled over for them, not easy on a 6ft wide track with trees each side!. Needless to say he never went again.

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