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3 Link Questions, discussion and a brain dump

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Very interesting on the flex of the Creeper joints Jamie, thanks for taking the time to measure them. So as you've got it flexed, the joint is metal to metal, ball is touching the washer? Is there more to give once the bushing starts compressing or is the metal touching before that and going to start bending stuff?

I made the same assumptions as yourself so no worries about the time. They don't really have anything more to give than what's in the picture, the washer's touching metal and will now lever against it both flexing the bush inside and pushing out on the washer. Another few degrees and it would be a broken thing. Like I said though, within limits, they are immensely strong. More like something from a vehicle many times the size of a Land Rover.

I think the L322 joints would be a great idea, I considered them myself. I wouldn't completely discount the creepers as I think proper resilience in a link is a good idea. Time will tell I suppose. The rod ends are so easy to change and the surface area big enough that I think they'll last a while before they start rattling around. No grease nipple in them's not good I think, maybe it stops grinding paste happening? I was thinking about putting my creepers at the axle end, rod ends at chassis end and using a CV boot over them. I have no idea how long they'll take to start rattling.

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I made the same assumptions as yourself so no worries about the time. They don't really have anything more to give than what's in the picture, the washer's touching metal and will now lever against it both flexing the bush inside and pushing out on the washer. Another few degrees and it would be a broken thing. Like I said though, within limits, they are immensely strong. More like something from a vehicle many times the size of a Land Rover.

I think the L322 joints would be a great idea, I considered them myself. I wouldn't completely discount the creepers as I think proper resilience in a link is a good idea. Time will tell I suppose. The rod ends are so easy to change and the surface area big enough that I think they'll last a while before they start rattling around. No grease nipple in them's not good I think, maybe it stops grinding paste happening? I was thinking about putting my creepers at the axle end, rod ends at chassis end and using a CV boot over them. I have no idea how long they'll take to start rattling.

They don't look like they would be any good if they only go to that angle. I don't want to restrict myself with the joints. I want to be able to have more flex available than the body can cope with and then limit strap the axle to suit. I wonder if the Currie Enterprises Johny Joint is any different angle-wise? Only having 24degrees of twist on a link is probably a good reason to discount them completely I think though? Two of the L322 joints would give me ~36Degrees. But that doesn't solve the fact that Si didn't make the housings.

I have wondered about making the links with something like a radius arm bush each end.... but one of the main reasons for the 3 link over the other options is the adjustability.

Which rod ends have you used?

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I'm sure you could whip up a housing for the L322 joints.

I do wonder about the abrasiveness of sand vs mud. Lots of the big heim style joints are being used and abused in the desert, and even on road cars, and seem to be fine. Maybe just get rebuildable ones (EMF springs to mind?), and rebuild as necessary.

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If you look at the sheer size of the johny joints and others, like trail gear etc. Compare that with a good quality rod end or spherical, and they are double the size for the same load rating. That plus you have about 10 different brands to choose from if you come to replace them. I'd say get proper rod end stuff and you have a better result.

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I'm sure you could whip up a housing for the L322 joints.

I do wonder about the abrasiveness of sand vs mud. Lots of the big heim style joints are being used and abused in the desert, and even on road cars, and seem to be fine. Maybe just get rebuildable ones (EMF springs to mind?), and rebuild as necessary.

Its making the thread-to-ring part strong enough that concerns me.

The EMF website seems to be either down or they've got a backlog (depending on which way you go in).

If you look at the sheer size of the johny joints and others, like trail gear etc. Compare that with a good quality rod end or spherical, and they are double the size for the same load rating. That plus you have about 10 different brands to choose from if you come to replace them. I'd say get proper rod end stuff and you have a better result.

In that respect I'm not too worried about the size, I've got enough space by the engine for the axle end of the upper link. However the space further around the chassis ends of the links would be beneficial.

Who would you recommend for them then? I don't mind buying expensive ones if they're better and spares available.

I'm still concerned about the longevity of a rod end in the sort of conditions we see over here unless the spares are easily obtainable and not outrageously expensive? The other concern is a lack of any cushioning... Something like a JJ with even just a little give will reduce the peak loadings the mounts see?

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Lasting in the desert I can understand, but when combined with sticky muddy water over here, I can see the chance for ingress to be much higher.

I'd say anything you use in the UK would need to be booted or properly sealed like the L322 joint above to make it last.

Go on Ross, you know you can do it -Ti links? ;)

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Lasting in the desert I can understand, but when combined with sticky muddy water over here, I can see the chance for ingress to be much higher.

I'd say anything you use in the UK would need to be booted or properly sealed like the L322 joint above to make it last.

Go on Ross, you know you can do it -Ti links? ;)

That's my thoughts Bowie :unsure:

Ti links.... don't tempt me :D

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If it were me, I would make links with a spherical on one end and a rubber bush on the other, namely these:

www.polyperformance.com/poly-performance-uniball-kit-package

www.polyperformance.com/synergy-dual-durometer-Teflon-ddt-lined-bushing-series

Rubber on one end would reduce the shock loading massively and still have enough angularity.

I cant see a johny joint being any better at wearing out when mud gets involved.

But what do I know about suspension?

Daan

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If it were me, I would make links with a spherical on one end and a rubber bush on the other, namely these:

www.polyperformance.com/poly-performance-uniball-kit-package

www.polyperformance.com/synergy-dual-durometer-Teflon-ddt-lined-bushing-series

Rubber on one end would reduce the shock loading massively and still have enough angularity.

I cant see a johny joint being any better at wearing out when mud gets involved.

But what do I know about suspension?

Daan

I'm guessing you know quite a bit :D.

However that polyperformance website is horrible.... 'we have all these different options'.... but there is only 1 'Add to cart' :lol: The Synergy website is almost as bad too.

I like the look of the DDT bushes in the forged housings, interestingly they only do LH threaded ones.

The Uniball only appears to be available as just the housing, no option for one with the male thread like a JJ/Rod end? in which case I don't see an advantage of those ones over a normal rod end. Unless you've used them and can vouch for the longevity?

Do you think a spherical bearing type joint will last in mud? I see the Johny joints lasting longer because of the bushing part. Any grit trapped in there isn't being rubbed around as hard as it would be in a rod end where the secondary material is much harder.

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Just select the right part and the price will update. Seems perfectly simple, and the way it's done on tons of other e-commerce websites.

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Just select the right part and the price will update. Seems perfectly simple, and the way it's done on tons of other e-commerce websites.

For the synergy one yes (Still a carp site for finding stuff compared to other places) but the Polyperformance one doesn't.

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Err, yes it does?

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I'm VERY confused now. The options that are there on the page Daan linked to second (the one which hasn't stayed as a hyperlink) were definitely not there on earlier visits to the site?! :unsure: The area under the price was most definitely blank apart from the quantity.

So that's where the confusion came from :lol:

EDIT: There are two different pages... one with the options, one without. If I copy and paste the web address I get one. If I right click 'go to....' I get the other. The only difference in the web address' for the two pages are some capital letters:

With options: http://www.polyperformance.com/synergy-dual-durometer-Teflon-ddt-lined-bushing-series

Without options: http://www.polyperformance.com/Synergy-Dual-Durometer-Teflon-DDT-Lined-Bushing-Series

EDIT AGAIN: Both of those as clickable links do show the options!

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Those uniballs are used by alot of the dessert boys with independent especially by the top end guys.... 4130 sheet arms sort of thing, sort of thing that costs a bomb to build and get heat treated, the sort of thing you don't want to be replacing weld on parts for!

I think your getting hung up about adjustablity, The only reason I fit threaded ends on a lower links is to correct tracking, make the axle at right angles to the chassis (and to be honest to take some of the stress of measuring and prep when setting up) and to do this its only one link up at the chassis end, thread pitch is "fine" on most threaded ends so thats 1.5-1.75mm that allows me to adjust a wheel back or forward by about 1mm at the wheel for half a turn of the joint

And the $20 extra for a joint with a threaded end is cheaper than me spending the extra time measuring and checking I'm true (and it looks flash to a client lol)

Adjustabilty on the top link yes this is for Caster and you get this wrong your handling is carp (potentially dangerous) I like alot of room to play on this one so I like to do a L&R

Panhard bar again the $20 extra is worth it for a bit of adjustment I prefer to only fit a single joint at the chassis end

The other reason I do weld on joints in the bottom, it is stronger!

Since this is a road going toy (yes?) I think you need a poly/rubber joint in each link to stop the road vibrations being transferred be this a JJ a rubber barrel bush (recomend the Patrol radius arm bushes, best flex without going stupid) or a radius arm style bush

If you are going to go a Hiem/Rose joint then try Rough stuff I've fitted these to trucks before Teflon lined 4140 joints and a sharper price than I could get in NZ

http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/RODENDS.html

As for making up a holder for the L322 joints.... simple make up a threaded rod in the lathe (this gives me a known quality of steel 1040 or 4140 personally) then a bit of Hollow bar, drill and tap a hole in the side to take the threaded rod, screw the two together and weld the outside (pre-heat and mig for 1040, or pre-heat and stick weld with a Med-High tensile Low Hi rod... the pre heat isn't necessary for this dia, just make me feel happier lol) then mount to the lathe and machine to fit the joint..... I even have half this stuff cut sitting next to the lathe to do for the toy lol when I get time!

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Those uniballs are used by alot of the dessert boys with independent especially by the top end guys.... 4130 sheet arms sort of thing, sort of thing that costs a bomb to build and get heat treated, the sort of thing you don't want to be replacing weld on parts for!

I think your getting hung up about adjustablity, The only reason I fit threaded ends on a lower links is to correct tracking, make the axle at right angles to the chassis (and to be honest to take some of the stress of measuring and prep when setting up) and to do this its only one link up at the chassis end, thread pitch is "fine" on most threaded ends so thats 1.5-1.75mm that allows me to adjust a wheel back or forward by about 1mm at the wheel for half a turn of the joint

And the $20 extra for a joint with a threaded end is cheaper than me spending the extra time measuring and checking I'm true (and it looks flash to a client lol)

Adjustabilty on the top link yes this is for Caster and you get this wrong your handling is carp (potentially dangerous) I like alot of room to play on this one so I like to do a L&R

Panhard bar again the $20 extra is worth it for a bit of adjustment I prefer to only fit a single joint at the chassis end

The other reason I do weld on joints in the bottom, it is stronger!

I wouldn't say hung up. I want the adjustment, I'm a perfectionist basically :). Being able to adjust things at a later date is one of the big reasons that I have chosen to go down the 3 link route rather than a 1 link. I'll get the bracketry and mounts as correct as I can but I still want to be able to dial it in perfectly. I can only do that if I've got adjustment both ends. We all have bad days at some point and if I've got a bracket out of position and I don't notice until after galv/paint then its nice to have the backup. I'm not going to be beating the car to death in something like the croatia trophy or similar so the slightly lower strength of a screwed in joint vs. a welded one isn't of concern to me.

Since this is a road going toy (yes?) I think you need a poly/rubber joint in each link to stop the road vibrations being transferred be this a JJ a rubber barrel bush (recomend the Patrol radius arm bushes, best flex without going stupid) or a radius arm style bush Yes it will be road going. Longer trips abroad will probably be done with the radius arms back on, but anything within the UK will be driven to with the 3 link on hence me wanting at least something on each joint with a bit of give/cushioning.

If you are going to go a Hiem/Rose joint then try Rough stuff I've fitted these to trucks before Teflon lined 4140 joints and a sharper price than I could get in NZ

http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/RODENDS.html Yeah I was looking at the roughstuff heim joints the other day. They certainly get good reviews on Pirate.

As for making up a holder for the L322 joints.... simple make up a threaded rod in the lathe (this gives me a known quality of steel 1040 or 4140 personally) then a bit of Hollow bar, drill and tap a hole in the side to take the threaded rod, screw the two together and weld the outside (pre-heat and mig for 1040, or pre-heat and stick weld with a Med-High tensile Low Hi rod... the pre heat isn't necessary for this dia, just make me feel happier lol) then mount to the lathe and machine to fit the joint..... I even have half this stuff cut sitting next to the lathe to do for the toy lol when I get time!

It is certainly something I'm capable of. I think though that I probably want to keep the joints to something that's available off the shelf.

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Starting to tie in my numbers in the 3 link calculator, I've got the chassis set at ride height and measured up the panhard positions. Steering geometry won't be changing so neither will the panhard positions.

The upper link for the moment is in a position that it fits fairly nicely axle end is pretty much fixed, but I have more room to play with the chassis mount. I'm aiming to have a 3 position bracket for the chassis end so I can adjust an inch of height either way.

Just got to have a play with lower link numbers now and see what I can come up with! Then I can start posting actual numbers for your perusal! :).

I think the front might turn into more of a track rod guard type setup if I want to keep my ground clearance good.... From memory I can get the upper link about 3-3.5" above the centreline, so I need to find about 6" down, but I've got the track rod in the way by the looks of it.

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I'm curious to see how much link separation is possible with a standard setup.
Be interesting to see what you come up with. What joints did you decide to go with?

I missed your earlier question sorry. I went with 1 1/4" rod ends with 5/8" misalignment spacers at one end and creepers at the other. I got them from ORA.

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I haven't actually decided on the joints yet... However I really need to get my choice nailed down so I can order them. I don't want to be positioning links without the actual joints to look at the space as it cycles.

Did you get your rod ends from ORA as well?

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Check out this D1 d on Pirate.... some good front end numbers to compare too....

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/land-rover/2329154-95-di-truggy-build-thread.html

This is the flex I get out of my setup using good old red poly bushes... ideal for the worst UK mud.

DSC05654_zps43f52ec7.jpg

However I had to add an extra bump stop on the front of the radius arm to stop any arm/frame contact. The mounts in the coil buckets are my cheap-ass bump cans :rofl:

DSC05651_zpsf85a951c.jpg

Cheers.....

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Thanks Andy.

Jamie, any chance of a picture or two of the two different joints side by side? And who makes the rod ends from ORA?

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Jamie, any chance of a picture or two of the two different joints side by side? And who makes the rod ends from ORA?

IMG_7699.jpg

IMG_7698.jpg

Sorry for the delay in my reply, I never had the links off until today.

I have no idea who makes the rod ends for ORA. I had some other unknown brand generic rod ends too that look much the same and make a similar impression on each other when you bash them together in a rather unscientific kind of hardness test. The service from ORA has been excellent, as it also was from Red Winch who made my aluminium links and supplied the tube for the rest.

I would suggest that the next time I buy rod ends I'll find some with a longer stud as I'm not happy with their length especially as they came with really fat lock nuts.

I have finally gone with the Creepers at one end and rod ends at the other. I like the idea of some resilience in there to reduce the forces on the links and hardware. All of the articulation comes from the rod end, the Creeper is much stiffer and more reluctant to move. This is maybe not a bad thing as it will keep the rod end centred most of the time and probably be less wear on the Creeper.

I'm still a bit away from being able to report on how they perform in my application but there are so many folks using them I can't see any dramas with whichever you choose. If you put Creepers at one end of each link then they can all be the same thread and you only need one spare, same with the rod ends. I only realise this with hindsight as I was building a one link that got out of hand and ended up going a bit mad with joints all over the place.

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Nice one, thanks Jamie :D.

What OD/ID are the ali links?

I was wondering about the stud length on them... How much movement is there? I was planning on building it with them in the middle of their usable thread to allow for adjustment.

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Another bonus of the combination of Creeper and Rod end holding it square most of the time... I could utilise a kinked top link to get the upper link further above the centre line of the axle.

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Well I've bitten the bullet and ordered a combination of rod ends and creeper joints! :).

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