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Expert help Required


skirky dave

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Snagger,

Cheers for that mate. I wasn't aware the 2.5 mount would be a direct replacement. The problem i've been having is that the drivers side engine mount wouldn't allow the pump to advance /retard without catching the rubber on the top half of the rubber mount.. There are a couple of bolts / fixings on the underneath part of the pump which hinders that movement.

If the 2.5 engine mounts with rubber mounts attached would be low enough to allow full movement of the pump, then, that would be the best way and the simplest i suppose.

I've already made and fitted the small bracket to fit onto the existing chassis leg which works great. It's just a case of fabricating the rubber mount bracket lower to allow full pump movement. This is also 90% completed.

However...i've had to stop for the moment as i had to rush my son to hospital so last night was a long long event.

Heavy rain is forcast for the next few days so...once again i'm playing the waiting game until it clears.

Cheers for the heads up on the 2.5 mounts though.

Dave.

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Glad it helps. For future reference, the blocks of the 2.25 petrol and diesel (10J), 2.5 petrol and diesel (12J), 2.5 TD (19J) and 200 Tdi (both Defender and Discovery/RRC) are fundamentally the same as far as mountings go, the 300 Tdi is not, though. So, a 2.25 left mount and 2.5 right mount will fit all those engines and give good flexibility.

The rubbers vary - there are small diameter circular rubbers for 2.25 petrol, square for 2.25 diesel and then larger circular for all 2.5s including 200Tdi on Defender mounts. The best rubbers seem to be the Bearmach units that Glencoyne Engineering stocks. As I understand it, Bearmach have two or three grades, so you need the right one. Other brands, including LR Gen Parts, are too hard with the Tdi and transmit a lot of vibration.

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Snagger,

Right cheers for that mate, much appreciated.

I think i remember someone, somewhere, writing a post on the use of softer rubber mounts but couldn't remember who stocked them, so that's excellent news about Glencoyne Engineering.

I think half the problem with ordering the right mounts is getting someone who actually knows what's what.

Then again...there are those who opt for the diesel square mount and those that go for the round, both with different quality issues.

Bit of a mine field really. HOWEVER..i shall give them a call this week and pick their brains .

Probably be a little more expensive but if it quietens down the vibration then all's good.

I've found Bearmach gear pretty good in the past 8/10 on the whole but Britpart.!!!!!! that's another story. I can only thank other members opinions / reviews on the said named brand for me to steer well clear.

Cheers again mate

Dave.

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It's only an issue with the Tdi - the other engines run smoothly enough not to cause vehicle vibration problems. I had a 2.25p which I replaced with a 19J (never buy one of those!),then a 12J and later a 200Tdi, so I have tried all but the 10J and 2.5 petrol!

The large round rubbers don't fit the Series left mount well without trimming the mount flanges, but that is easy enough with a grinder. They're all the same thickness and all have similar diameter studs, but I expect the Series mounts use Imperial threads while the large round mounts are metric.

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Once again, interesting information there Regarding the engine mounts.

You would have thought the newer designs of the Land Rover diesel engines should be smoother in all aspects given the cost of production.

My engine mounts fitted to the Sherpa's engine were a total write off. To be honest, they were beyond dangerous under closer inspection. The drivers side was almost split in two. Frightening really but you couldn't tell, until it was removed.

So that got me thinking...Are these square mounts cheaply made ??..Would i be better off with Round Mounts ??, Which make??.

I think these old mounts must have been a Britpart. They were certainly very hard, Not a soft rubber at all.

So much rubbish out there.

Dave.

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The Tdis are prone to vibration because they were first generation direct injection - DI is harsher than indirect injection. Later engines use multi stage injection to soften the combustion stroke. The 12J and 19J were indirect injection engines, so are smoother than the Tdi, so you can fit whichever mounts you prefer. Series square mounts should be strong enough without needing any fettling of the left SIII brackets.

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The Tdis are prone to vibration because they were first generation direct injection - DI is harsher than indirect injection. Later engines use multi stage injection to soften the combustion stroke. The 12J and 19J were indirect injection engines, so are smoother than the Tdi, so you can fit whichever mounts you prefer. Series square mounts should be strong enough without needing any fettling of the left SIII brackets.

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Ok mate cheers for that. Standard square mounts were ordered and delivered.

Been busy sorting this problem out with the fuel pump catching the new rubber mount.Had to re/angle the engine bracket somewhat which cleared the fuel pump, no problem,. BUT.. CAUSED ME A FEW HEADACHES!!. Because the angle was changed, this meant the rubber mount wouldn't lay flat on the chassis leg. Royal Pain!!!. There was now a gap of 30mm from bottom of rubber mount to chassis at one end and 10mm to chassis at the other.

SO..After a few paracetamol and cups of tea.with the odd fag thrown in for good measure..i came up with a plan. Using scrap 1'4 thick angle iron, i set about making a couple of wedges to fit the gap with a piece of steel plate on the top. Thus allowing the rubber mount to sit perfectly. Instead of drilling a hole for the rubber mounts nut and bolt to fasten to,..i decided to cut out a section of parallel lines running up the plate TOWARDS the drill hole. In effect, this creates a SLIDING PLATE.

The plate can be moved (slid) up or down the chassis leg to allow the rubber mount fixing bolt to be passed threw the plate and chassis leg and finally tightened up.

Once this is done...i can then weld a further plate at the end of the wedge (THICK END), DRILL THROUGH and attach with bolt to chassis leg.

SIMPLY PUT..i now have the option of removing the wedged plate and the engine mount by removing 3 bolts and going back to a 21/4 diesel should i wish or replacing with a 200DI. WITHOUT having to cut off the ORIGINAL chassis leg.

WISH I KNEW HOW TO POST PICTURES, THIS IS INFURIATING!!!.

Joined photo bucket but it will not allow me to drag and drop images,...Not allowed or something like that. PLUS THE IMAGE FILES are too big??????????.

Anyway...the images are still on my computer and as soon as i can fathom out HOW to put them on here and make them smaller,.. with an underlined description of what they mean etc etc,.i shall. To see the images would certainly make more sense along with an explanation.

Anyway....back to the grindstone.

Cheers

Dave.

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If you have photobucket (bleh), then just use this button in the reply box:

post-4193-0-06167800-1472547525.jpg

And copy the 'direct' option from photobucket:

post-4193-0-21563600-1472547614_thumb.jpg

And paste it in the dialog created by the first button click:

post-4193-0-65304600-1472547678_thumb.jpg

Click OK, and done.

Have a monkey-art coffee :)

Monkey.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi guys,

Only just got started with this engine over the last couple of days. Pulled my back badly a couple of weeks ago and been in agony for most of the time. Could hardly shift.

Anyway.. i need to ask a serious question before i continue with this engine.

At the moment i have replaced the pully wheels BUT the camshaft wheel will not spin/ turn.

The diesel pump obviously turns by hand and so will the crankshaft  but NOT the camshaft.

The landy is OUT of gear with one rear wheel off the ground. The free wheel hubs are engaged to 4x4,..Do these need disengaging

Also, does it require the timing belt fitting so that  the belt turns the camshaft.

I have seen youtube video's regarding the changing of the timing belt and also read posts by LES but this situation has me puzzled as i haven't seen this problem before. Or is it just me .

Also..the rockers and shaft have been removed.

Cheers

Dave.

 

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If you try to turn the camshaft with the crank in the timing position you may well be trying to push a valve down onto a piston crown which will bend pushrods. If you set the timing before starting work, then you cannot turn the cam. If you have to turn the cam, then unscrew all the tappet adjusters so that the valves remain closed irrespective of turning either the cam or the crank. I will be hard work to turn the cam by hand anyway as you will be trying to open or close the valves.

 

 

Les

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Hi Les.

Ok, let me start at the beginning so i don't cause any confusion.

The timing belt snapped,so i decided to fit the chest off the j19 engine as you are aware. This has, so far, gone ok'ish.

Sherpa Fuel pump fitted and lined up with the dot as you stated before as opposed to the F mark.

Crankshaft turns with ratchet ok AND is lined up with the woodruff key and pointer at the 12 o clock position ......no belt fitted at this time!!!.

The tappets/shaft was remove this morning so i could remove the bent push rods. And yes they were bent!!.

Waiting for new push rods and other parts to arrive tomorrow.

Problem is...i can't shift the Camshaft.

Could you point me in the right direction as to sorting this out as the old bent push rods are already out so there is nothing to cause a resistance..

Will it help if i turn the Crankshaft away from it's timing marker so i can get the Crankshaft wheel timed up correctly.

Cheers Les.

 

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Sorry i didn't mean ..( Will it help if i turn the Crankshaft away from it's timing marker so i can get the Crankshaft wheel timed correctly)

 

I meant to say Will it help if i turn the Crankshaft away from it's timing mark so i can get the CAMSHAFT wheel timed correctly. As in MOVE!! 

Cheers again Les.

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Oooooo this doesn't sound good. I have no idea what this could be. Starting to think it maybe game over,

I was only doing 10-15 mph when the belt snapped..

Anyone else had this problem ( he asked...hopefully).

I did remove the vacuum pump so i could use the bracket off the 19j engine to support the Sherpa Diesel pump. As it sits lower and needs the support bracket.

I'LL take the vacuum pump off and see if that makes any difference.

Can't help but feel a little worried about this.

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LES..

Found out the problem....

I removed the vacuum pump and walla....the CAMSHAFT MOVES.

If you hadn't mentioned the fact that the camshaft OPERATES vacuum and lift pump...i woudn't have known to check it !!!!!!!!!.

Now just got to re/check just what i did wrong as i thought the vacuum pump only fitted one way. Obviously it doesn't. THIS IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS TO REMEMBER!!.

Anyway, cheers Les..legend.

Dave.

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On the diesel engines, the valves open down into the cylinder, below the head gasket.  If the piston comes up while a valve is down, they will hit each other and cause damage.  Usually, if being turned by hand tools, the damage is limited to bending the push rods between cam shaft and rockers (which is why they're so thin and soft - they're sacrificial), but at engine running speeds, it often breaks the rockers, the rocker shaft or valves, all easily replaceable.  Bending the valve is also a possible outcome that would cause low compression without being obviously visible with the head removed.  So, turning either shaft with the belt of is not good, unless you can ensure the valves stay shut.  You can do that by removing the rocker shaft or the push rods (removing push rods allows them to be inspected for wear and bending).  Then you spin the shafts as fast as you like to align the timing marks.

I can't quite follow what you've done with the engine mount.  The usual thing to do is to use the 19J's right hand bracket and a standard rubber, making a chassis bracket up to suit.  That allows the installation of any 2.25 or 2.5 LR engine other than the 300Tdi.

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Hi again Snagger,hows it going.

I'm still getting over a trapped spinal nerve. Really really painful.But getting there now.

Thanks again for the heads up.

The compression,although without testing,,,seems ok.

The push rods were only slightly bent compared to the last time when they were bent like a letter S.

I do have a new set of valve stem seals to fit along with genuine land rover oil stem seals.

There was no carbon build up on the rods either which, according to Paddocks Video Tool Locker would be a sign  of head gasket failure. So ok there then.

As for the engine mount problem.....I didn't have the engine mounts from the 19j. It was sold to me without these.

Also...from just about everywhere i looked and read, everyone said the main problem with fitting a land rover 2.5N/A or 200tdi into a series vehicle was,..the that the chassis leg had to be removed (Drivers Side/Offside) because the fuel pump sat too low and fouled the chassis. So the chassis leg had to be cut off and mounted lower down.

I was not aware an existing mount could be placed in situ to avoid the hassle of removing the chassis leg.

If i'm not mistaken,..i think Glencoyne land rovers also mention this when converting a series landy to a 200Di.

So...armed with this knowledge, i decided to fabricate my own engine/chassis mount ONTO my EXISTING CHASSIS LEG.

This way, i could fasten the mount in place with two bolts and simply remove it, if i wanted to in the future should a 2.25 diesel turn up.

Without having to grind off yet another chassis leg and re/welding again.

Apart from which,..i don't have an engine hoist, my driveway is on a slope. a bit daunting really.

AND not forgetting that many years ago i had an accident in the steel works and was hit in the back with a tractor rear axle which is why i still suffer from back problems. So i have to be very careful when lifting etc. Or i end up in agony. I'm just getting over my last stint which was very painful.

But i wish i had known you before Snagger, your knowledge would have saved me a lot of hassle fabricating a new mount to both the engine and chassis leg.

As they say...it's not what you know but who.....

Cheers Snagger

Dave.

 

 

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There is no problem with the chassis leg interfering with the timing case, but the battery tray does - you can either modify the tray and sit the battery further forward into the space occupied by the air filter, or site it in the tool box under the front left seat like a 90/110/Defender - you don't really want to use an oil bath filter with a diesel anyway, as efficient at filtration as they are.  It's not a big job.  It's the right engine mounting bracket on the chassis which is the biggest task, making up a car mockup and then fabricating and welding the new bracket in place of the old.

The chassis leg fouling issue is the turbocharger when fitting a Discovery/RRC version of the 200Tdi into a 109 (but not an 88).  That is why I searched around for Defender manifolds to convert my Discovery engine to a Disco/Defender hybrid.

If you go to my blog and poke around the engine pages, you'll see how I installed a 12J and later a 200Tdi (modified Discovery with the same mountings I'd used on the 12J), with plenty of photos showing the mountings (including the modified right side mount after fitting Defender axles).  Glencoyne has been using the same method of joining the transmission to a Tdi for a while now as I did.  I have chatted with and visited him a few times.

You have my sympathy for you back.  I am finishing my third week of sick leave following a spine op after a disc herniated so much that it was crushing my spinal chord a year ago, originally just occasionally reducing me to hobbling bent double like Gollum, but recently became continuous.  The last few days before the op it was so bad that I was on Tramadol (synthetic heroin), after an ambulance ride and hospital A&E admission just for pain relief.  The crushing has damaged the sciatic nerve and lost the function of the shin muscles, but it's coming back now.  So, I know just how painful it can be!

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Ok....Don't i feel a total IDIOT!!!!!!!,

Found the MAIN cause why the Cam would not turn...

BASICALLY it's my stupid fault. When transferred the timing  chest over from the 19j TD to the 15j Sherpa, i already knew the diesel pump would fit too low and that new mounts had to be made. BUT,,What i didn't take into account was that the fuel pump support bracket that fits under the vacuum pump of the Sherpa's set up, would be miles too short to achieve this. In effect,the pump was only being supported by the 3 nuts of the fuel pump to the chest.

So what was actually happening was the vacuum pump bolts were tightening down onto the Camshaft!! Because there was no spacer, created by the support bracket under the vacuum pump. This was the reason the Camshaft couldn't move. AAAAAARGH.

The lights of the Christmas Tree suddenly came ON !!!.

The way i had the accelerator cable set up on the Sherpa's pump worked very very well and i didn't really want to change it.

Anyway.....I took off the vacuum pump,and then placed the accelerator bracket / vacuum bracket with the one off the 19jTD .I then refitted the vacuum pump and 3 fixing bolts and WALLA.  The pump turns without any problems, What a numpty i thought to myself.

Just for good measure, i then took everything back off again and shone a torch as far as i could along the camshaft to check for any damage.All appears to be ok.

Put it all back together AGAIN!!  and all is well.

ALSO...the accelerator fits the new bracket BETTER than before. Everything has married up perfect, Couldn't be better.

Getting new push rods today and other bits so ...can't wait.

My son is bringing me his digital torque wrench from work so hopefully the timing belt will be sorted either this evening or over the weekend..

We live and learn!!!.

..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Snagger...t

Sorry to hear also about your back problems..

I was told,   years ago  (1980) that an operation could be performed on my back but in doing so, there was a very real risk of me ending up in a wheel chair ( suffered severe spinal shock).. for the rest of my life.  So i decided to grin and bare it. They also wanted to put me into,  what can only be described as a women's support girdle. Which at 20yrs old is not a good image.

But get this....THEY..  (The Specialist Doctors) told me i should sleep on a wooden board for the next 18 MONTHS!! because this would benefit my injury. 1980's medical knowledge .

NOW (2016)  They say ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!   IT CAN MAKE IT WORSE!!!  You need to keep moving and exercising the back muscles or they can seize up.

Glad i didn't have the operation.

 

 

 

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Hi Les,

NO no, not going off topic. I was just trying to explain why i hadn't been around for a few days.

In fact i'm glad your here. because Iv'e got yet another question .

I'm now starting to put this back together after collecting my parts this evening and i was just wondering..After putting the new push rods in place, is their a specific sequence for torquing down the rocker.

I've found out the torque settings being 25Nm for all the bolts concerned but i can't find any information regarding a sequence.

Dave.

 

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No sequence, but to prevent undue stresses, it's not a bad idea to tighten them down each bolt a bit at a time so the shaft is kept straight.  Just get the big bolts nipped before you put the small ones in, and torque the big bolts before the small.  I do it the same fashion as the head bolts, starting torque in the middle and working out, but 25Nm is not much, so it doesn't have to be scientific!  Retracting the tappets first means that there is more slack and the shaft will be under less stress from the open valves' pushrods as you tighten it down (the valves will initially be closed but the rods up, so the rockers will pivot and push the valves as you tighten the shaft down.

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