Jedward McGovern strikes again

[studmuffin]

Seen the new Land Rover Discovery??

Why do the Discovery Sport, New Discovery, Evoque, Range Rover Sport, and  Range Rover all look pretty much the same??

I know they are selling -- but ---Isn`t it time Land Rovers Design Director stopped using the same shape for every model?

Just a thought

Barry 

 

[Tal]

Not too worried about what they look like but they all seem very low to the ground. Considering what they're designed for it seems a bit odd to make the ground clearance....less!

[Cynic-al]

It's been the Ford way for years, make a family of cars that all look alike. It's a shame as I though the thing that made a discovery unique was the huge interior space. The head room in the boot has always been huge and the rear door is big enough to get a big cube of stuff through, I've always been amazed by how versatile the car is. The new one is a zafira with bigger wheel arches like every other urban 4x4 on the market  Cars like that can't even get 2 adults in the boot seats like discoveries used to and are a waste of time at Ikea.

[Arjan]

Don't think we're part of the potential buyers group...

With the D IV they've sort of left their roots behind.

 

[FridgeFreezer]

LR have lost the plot / ruined everything / forgotten their roots / made it too complicated / not a proper off roader with everything they've released since the D1 surely

 

Must be why they keep running out of space at the factory to meet the ever growing demand for their product.

[Shackleton]

Sad to say but we as consumers (obviously not us here) have dictated the trend. Generally speaking quality is not demanded in any sense of the word. The type of people LR are obviously marketing to now, want to look "awesome" whilst being spoon fed by parking cameras, automated tailgates and e-parking brakes. Sadly it means the type of people hired to design our cars are not far behind.

Here's an illustration - my uncle, a serial RR guy, just bought a new FFRR Vogue based purely on his allegiance to the marque. When he asked the dealer to arrange for the car to be taken to a professional underseal outfit before the handover, the dealer "Brand Manager" made such a big deal about it my uncle is going to take the car to the UK instead! When he asked for the key fob ID tags to stick in the designated space in the owners service book, the Brand Manager's response was that he'd just learned something new (that those labels were supposed to be stuck in the book) and unfortunately he'd thrown them away. 

On the car itself and speaking directly to LR's attitude towards what the €150k buyer should get in return; the draw strap system for removing the (optional) full sized spare wheel is missing! The spare wheel tie down bolt is extremely difficult to get in whilst kneeling in the load area, eyeballing the thread, and next to near impossible to do standing by the tailgate. When you do get it to engage it threads for a turn and a half which can't be right, certainly can't be strong. Furthermore the car has a feature whereby you can electrically fold down the rear seats whilst standing at the tailgate. It's a nifty thing, but when you fold them back up they catch and trap the rear seat belts, every time. It defeats the purpose entirely. Both upper and lower glove boxes are released by solenoid, the latter auto opening. The former needs to be pressed very hard to be locked again. Not a huge thing but it should be "just so" and not an effort. It undermines the perceived finish.

 I absolutely love it, it really is something to behold. But I love it for a whole other set of reasons to why I loved LR in the first place. Sadly my LR and the LR of today stand very far apart.

 

[Snagger]

A lot of Land Rover engineers still think the best Range Rover was the Classic.  I suppose from their perspective it's because it was a car built for a task with style added, and not a car designed by the fashion gurus and then left for the engineers to make it work.  I prefer the older stuff for their design integrity too, plus their relative simplicity and sthe way they simply have more class - classy folk don't show their money, and the modern stuff is all show.

[Shackleton]

You're a man after my own heart, so I won't take that last bit about the classy folk personally

[Snagger]

You know what I mean, Shak - bling is for pop stars, footballers and drug dealers, ie new money with no sense of decorum.  That's what I mean by class, not the old class system of upper, middle and lower - I could never make it up those ranks.  But remember in Four Weddings how the aristocrat drove a tatty old SII 88"?  That's not unrealistic - the truly wealthy stay that way by not wasting their money, and they know the difference between class and brass!

[Shackleton]

I think that's my favourite thing about the British... the pragmatism of old money, driving trusty old LR and RR's long after the nouveau set have deemed them old hat. Yep it's new money that lured LR to this place they're in now.

I'll say one thing that the new RR has that brought me back to the days when cars needed checking on regularly for fluid top ups... it's law that you must ad "adblue" to the car every so many miles for emissions!

[Happyoldgit]

Unfortunately there is a whole nouveau subset who saw the last of the Defenders more as a lifestyle image and just can't wait to add leather interiors, gadgets and tons of sound deadening to make it 'more civilised' and in the process doing away with any notion of it being the capable utility vehicle it was initially designed to be. Many of these same people either now think that they are driving a sure-fire investment that is guaranteed to be worth more than they paid for it, or have discovered that even with softer springs the vehicle makes their elbows, left leg and arses so sore that they are looking to move them on PDQ and move onto the next fad that involves waving at everyone driving the same marque who passes them.

[PhantomSVE]

Hello Gents,

I am both intrigued and encouraged by your comments.I am an Engineer very close to the Land Rover product and can tell you the design brief came from much data collected from customer surveys.

Shakelton,if you don't mind me asking :Where did your uncle purchase his L405 ??

 

Phantom

[duncmc]

I actually hated the D3 when it first came out. I thought it looked dreadful. But after a few years and having had two, they were great cars when new. The running costs were dreadful though. Granted it was a super versatile car which is brilliant for towing. Now though at nearly 10 years old I wouldn't want to run one. It's like my RRS, great when it's all working. 

[Tal]

I still don't understand the change from useful basically rural vehicle to a dressed up road motor, yes four wheel drive is good in the snow and who on earth needs electronics to go downhill on a road ... But how many farmers and game keepers , woodland managers etc (which is wha the LR vehicles were originally designed for and I bet there isnt any military contract) are going to use a vehicle like an evoque or D3 for work. it makes no sense.

The discovery 3 weighs 2.5 tons without any additions so it needs a 3.0l V6 engine just to get it moving along the road. 

I'd love to see what anyone here would dare to do, to modify one for decent off road use.

 

these new models are poor copies in my opinion, I wouldnt consider any of them as a new useable vehicle for me, just by looking at them

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, PhantomSVE said:

Hello Gents,

I am both intrigued and encouraged by your comments.I am an Engineer very close to the Land Rover product and can tell you the design brief came from much data collected from customer surveys.

Shakelton,if you don't mind me asking :Where did your uncle purchase his L405 ??

 

Phantom

I can only assume you didn't read the relies very throughly. As none seemed to be in praise that I could tell. 

 

Like many here I'm a long time Land Rover fan. Currently own 3 1/2 and come from a family that has probably owned somewhere in the region of 50-70 individual Land Rover vehicles. But the newest model of any currently owned is a D2, that was bought new and thus far LR have not produced anything to directly replace it. 

 

What I don't get is, why must companies strive for mass market always. There is nothing wrong with making a more niche product and doing it well. Something Land Rover where top of their game. Now they are just rather gash. And I agree fully I see no point nor do I understand why every model must be made to look like all the others. 

 

Jaguar, another marque we have owned a lot of. Also suffer this. Their current range is rather tragic IMO and I have no interest in any of them. But then again I seem to have zero interest in the current Land Rover range either. So it is obvious I'm not the target buyer. 

 

Guess all I can do is continue buying old ones, Jeeps and other interesting utility 4x4's instead. 

[Tal]

it's got to be pretty bad if long time LR fans are actually considering other vehicles

[Ex Member]

2 hours ago, PhantomSVE said:

Hello Gents,

I am both intrigued and encouraged by your comments.I am an Engineer very close to the Land Rover product and can tell you the design brief came from much data collected from customer surveys.

Shakelton,if you don't mind me asking :Where did your uncle purchase his L405 ??

 

Phantom

Basically...  LR is building a vehicle to make money and what the masses want.

They originally built a vehicle for a purpose.  One that would work well on and off road.  They have lost that goal.  They are now mediocre for off road use.  That said, they do not need the whole range to fulfill this goal, but one end of the range should.  The Defender or replacement for it should be set with a goal to be world beating off road while being good on road.  It should make Jeep Rubicon owner want to sell theirs tomorrow and dream of having a Defender. Having that as a goal is not solely for sales of the Defender.  It would strengthen and bolster the overall brand image and bring more people into the brand.  That off road prowess sells the rest of the line. 

 

[PhantomSVE]

Hello Chicken,

I must admit,even in my position where I am privileged to drive all Land Rovers before they even reach the general public my favorite is still a Defender.

The issue of design brief is driven by the profit margin.The markets and current buyers of the product is nothing close to what you would consider to be the original Land Rover owner.The majority of people who own or operate one of these vehicles today will never use 50% of the capabilities of these units.But they like how they look,lot of toys to play with and it makes a statement.

If you talk to Land Rover Engineers you will realize almost all have Defenders,but the final decision of design is not left to the engineers.It's the age old problem,Marketing Managers making engineering decisions.

 

Phantom

[missingsid]

Dare to modify a D3 for offroad? It is one of the best offroaders as is!

Performance, OK mine is V8 but performance in a straight line is similar to an early Golf GTi 16v apparently?

It will hang the backend out on large roundabouts (cheap part worn tyres on at the time) it has double wishbone and air suspension.

True about the new money and no style, I cant stand the footballers rubbish (Khann et all) even the high performace SVR looks awefull to me.

[PhantomSVE]

The problem you have is,we live in a world driven by profit.When you have a company that have on their order books clients like the King of Spain,The Royal Family and every footballer wife.The wishes and likes of you and me come secondary.

 

Phantom

[Scotts90]

Going by the images it's not the worst thing on 4wheels, will reserve judgement until I see one in the metal. As previously stated its a trend that all the major players follow....how many can pick out a 2/3/4/5 series BMW? 

I like many have worked through the ranks of the green oval ownership and enjoyed most of them (although one D2 tested my patience), but would I have a new RRS, FFRR or D5? I probably would, SWMBO misses our D4 greatly and as a luxury vehicle the Range Rovers (excluding the evoque) are better than their competitors. I recently had an X5 and a ML350cdi to tinker with and wasn't overly impressed considering their price point and their standing as rivals to the LR. Materials and finish were lacking in quality from what is perceived as the class leaders in SUVs.... 

Which is what these vehicles really are now, they aren't utility vehicles like the defender was. Comparing them to a 90/110 is akin to comparing other icons like a Spitfire against a eurofigher. Time and technology moves on and it's not always going to please everyone. The LR brand is successful and I'm sure their shareholders are ecstatic...has anyone mentioned the defender replacement yet? 

[Chicken Drumstick]

19 minutes ago, missingsid said:

Dare to modify a D3 for offroad? It is one of the best offroaders as is!

Performance, OK mine is V8 but performance in a straight line is similar to an early Golf GTi 16v apparently?

It will hang the backend out on large roundabouts (cheap part worn tyres on at the time) it has double wishbone and air suspension.

True about the new money and no style, I cant stand the footballers rubbish (Khann et all) even the high performace SVR looks awefull to me.

To be honest I actually quite like the D3, but it isn't a rugged off roader. It's a gizmo filled complex machine, that is likely to require serious effort to maintain should you actually abuse it. 

And while IFS/IRS may be the must have thing for all the motoring press idiots to tout about. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with how a D2 or p38a handle or ride on the road. And both work off road better than the independent systems. 

[duncmc]

27 minutes ago, PhantomSVE said:

The issue of design brief is driven by the profit margin.The markets and current buyers of the product is nothing close to what you would consider to be the original Land Rover owner.The majority of people who own or operate one of these vehicles today will never use 50% of the capabilities of these units.But they like how they look,lot of toys to play with and it makes a statement.

It's the age old problem,Marketing Managers making engineering decisions.

 

Phantom

 

14 minutes ago, PhantomSVE said:

The problem you have is,we live in a world driven by profit.When you have a company that have on their order books clients like the King of Spain,The Royal Family and every footballer wife.The wishes and likes of you and me come secondary.

 

Phantom

 

I understand exactly what you have said Phantom. And I have heard the same things said about older models such as the D1 and the P38 from Design engineers.

Land Rover are in the business of designing, manufacturing and selling cars to make profit just like all other cars makers. And they have been for a long time.

[PhantomSVE]

I agree,

Technology move on and in today's world it moves quite rapidly.The concern I have as an Engineer is that we have moved the Technology along at such a rapid rate that the service industry don't have time to catch up.

A perfect example of this is the new Range Rover (L405): Three different CAN bUS,LIN,MOST,WIFi and all the connectivity on the planet.You wake one morning and it decides it does not want to start,which one of the nearly 72 ECU's you going to look at.

One of the big pluses of Defender is during it cycle of production it was one of the few vehicles you can buy and work on and customize for your self,no more.

 

Phantom

[Mo Murphy]

Pitchfork

Flaming torch

Ready

Mo