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300Tdi starter - any emergency repairs possible?


Troll Hunter
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The starter in my 110 CSW has gone belly up.  Typical, when we're over 1,600 km from home, in the wilds of northern BC, Canada.  I've removed the starter, and the solenoid appears to be working fine when I connect 12v across it.  On opening up the body of the starter, by removing the two long through bolts, I found more carp and crud than I thought possible.  It all appeared to be fine graphite, presumably from the brushes, which had accumulated at the bottom of the case.  I've tried removing the other end of the body, to get to the brushes, but all I seem able to achieve is to wreck the Phillips head screws.  I've not disturbed the large Phillips head screws that appear to attach the coils.

Please can someone advise me the best way to proceed, please?

The starter is a genuine LR item, now 20 + years old, with the Bosch name and LR part no. ERR5009 stamped on it.  Does anybody know what other make of vehicles, apart from RR 1986 - 1994, have this starter, since I doubt that it was made only for LR, so I might be able to get a replacement this side of the pond, and in less than 2 weeks (Paddocks and UPS air freight) and spendy, spendy, spendy?

 

Many thanks, in advance, for any and all suggestions.

 

Mike

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Mike I've done a fair bit of searching for alternatives with regard to starter motors and I've always come to dead ends in the way that other than on Land Rovers I've not found another vehicle that shares the same housing bolt pattern.

The starter is the same used from the NA diesel, DT, 200tdi etc...

Whats the biggest car makes you get over there? and I'll see if I can find a type you might be able to transfer the motor and brushes over and keep your housing and solenoid...?

 

Some alternative part manufacturer numbers....

http://www.dfjauto.com/DFJ020464/LAND ROVER-ERR5009

BOSCH
0001218152
0001218168
0001218768
0986016210
1621
9000331412
 
DAF
0494285R
 
FORD
BF5T11001AA
BF5TAA
 
FEMSA
MRF1216
 
MARELLI
943227446
 
LUCAS
LRS00728
LRS02088
LRS2088
LRS728
 
LAND ROVER
ERR5009
ERR5009A
NAD10039
NAD100390
NAD500210
 
VALEO
105940
432574
436052
D9R91

 

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Mike,

If the bearings are okay, then it should be possible for your current one to be rebuilt. Do you have an old, traditional "can fix anything" type garage or workshop nearby. He might not be equipped to do the job himself, but he'd maybe know where to take / send it.

Yonks ago, when we lived in Norfolk there was a little place that just refurbished starters and alternators for pennies. They had proper "old school" equipment, and it was a dark, cluttered place but they did amazing work. 

Good luck!

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The only other lead i can offer based on internet searches/lucas parts numbers are the BMW 7/8 series have the same casing visually along with the same spec motor and number of teeth. It may be worth putting them side by side on the parts store bench and comparing. I.e if they spin the same way and dimensions wise. If things are looking desperate.

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Thanks for all your inputs, part numbers and links.  Here, in Prince Rupert, I have found a back street outfit that deals with small commercial fishing vessel electrics, and they think that they can mix 'n match parts from another starter and using my old armature so that the number of teeth is correct.  Yes, it's a good example of "bush" engineering, which must often be necessary in these parts, and, surprisingly, it's a couple of youngsters, must be no more than 30 year olds, who suggested the fix!  I'll update on the results, hopefully later today.

Mike

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I would just use a big can of WD40 with the straw to thoroughly wash the insides out, drain it out, throw it back together and test it.  It's quite likely that the dust and dirt was either preventing electrical contact or shorting the brushes and commutator, and removing it would sort out either problem.  As long as there is enough material left for the brushes to work, and they are quite big when new, then is should do the trick (unless a short burnt anything out).

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Thanks for the suggestion, Snagger, but the gods have smiled on me.  The parcel that was being air-freighted to an outfit that was trying to help me arrived this morning and a successful "bush" engineering mix n' match with another old, other model starter was performed, and the replaced mongrel unit is now operational.  Great work by the guys here, and SWMBO and I can now catch the ferry tomorrow morning to Haida Gwaii, formerly the Queen Charlotte Islands, without fear of having to be towed off!

Next on the agenda is to source new brushes for the original unit, which I can resurrect since I have all the bits - I hope!

Many thanks, again, for sharing your experiences and all your advice. 

Mike

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The carbon brushes are reasonably generic, when mine were due to be replaced I went into my local auto electrical workshop with them as samples and he sold me two that were marginally longer than the originals but the same width, it took me about 10 minutes to carefully file them down to fit into the two brass holders.  You should have no problems.  

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On 14-9-2016 at 10:59 AM, Snagger said:

I would just use a big can of WD40 with the straw to thoroughly wash the insides out, drain it out, throw it back together and test it.  It's quite likely that the dust and dirt was either preventing electrical contact or shorting the brushes and commutator, and removing it would sort out either problem.  As long as there is enough material left for the brushes to work, and they are quite big when new, then is should do the trick (unless a short burnt anything out).

That's not really good advice to be honest. Any oily substance getting onto the brushes and the collector causes sparking and rapidly, like in seriously rapidly, accelerates wear.

Parts for those bosch starters are cheap and shouldnt be hard to find. In an emergency situation you could source brushes that can be made to fit and solder them in. Do clean up the collector when fitting new brushes. It's usually shiny and black and gives bad a contact. We clean them up on a lathe with the use of some sandingpaper.

If the bendix is carp, well, there's no alternative fix than to replace it. We always replace those when rebuilding bosch starters. (I work at an alternator and starter repair/rebuild shop)

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But he said he couldn't open it as the screws were seized.  I was just suggesting a way of cleaning it out to get it working for the short term.  His problem is that he is on a trip with limited tools and no supply of a new motor.  I am talking about "bush" or "get you home" repairs.

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You can get to to the brushes easily by undoing the long through bolts and undoing the 2 little screws and the endcap. Those always come loose. The 3 screws that hold the solenoid on are the ones that are always very tight. An impact driver is the answer here. Not something most people carry in their toolbox.

 

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OK, guys, at last we're back in civilisation and internet is at least marginally faster than dial-up.  Many thanks for your continued input on my loss of starter problem.  I had not lost interest, I just didn't have the patience to do anything on the net that wasn't absolutely essential.

The "bush engineering" fix has held up well, but I accept that it is a temporary fix.  I'm not sure what they did, but I'll be opening it up again and replacing the brushes, as a minimum.  Thanks for the comments about the ease of replacement, and with a significant number of Euro-boxes here I should be able to source replacement Bosch brushes.

The solenoid and the Bendix appear to be fully functional, but I have a question regarding the commutator.  On the comm of my original starter the copper sections had regular fine grooves around them for the whole length of the brush contact area.  Are these grooves there by design or are they the result of wear, and should I have them removed - lathe and fine sand paper?

Mike

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What Nick says.

And FYI, even if the bendix seems to function as intended when you feel it by hand, it might still be defective. Often the feel fine but when torque is applied (bendix graps the flywheel, starter turns), it is sufficient to break through the one-way clutch of the bendix. Only way to find out if it still works is on a test bench where it's setup in such a way that the bendix can actually engage a sort of flywheel that can be loaded up. Or on the vehicle, when you know the rest of the starter is fine and you can hear it run but it just doesn't turn over the engine.

A way to test the solenoid is as follows. Take it of the starter, put the plunger back in it, without the spring. Hold the solenoid in your hand and push the plunger slowly against something sturdy. You'll feel the plunger hits something spring loaded. If you can push it further still, about a mm or so. The solenoid is still fine. If you cant push it any further, or you can't even feel the spring loaded bit, it's worn out. Bosch solenoids tend to have a long life though.
 

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For info, this is what you find inside a bendix gear clutch thingy... I had the issue that the starter sound like it was engaging and spinning up... but no putt putt.... it was only by accident that I found the one way clutch thingy was past its best and actually slipping when torque was applied from the motor...

Its quite clever really, very simple, just a tapered slot with some barrels which are sprung loaded so lock up when turned a specific way, but unlock when the engine starts up and allows it to free spool.

20160407_185809_resized_1.jpg

20160407_185815_resized_1.jpg

20160407_185930_resized_1.jpg

 

 

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I am amazed that members are still posting in response to my question.  Thank you all, very much, especially for the technical advice on testing the Bendix drive and the wear on the comm.  Unfortunately, family problems back in UK mean that I'm about to leave home again, without having had a chance to review the bush engineering and apply a permanent fix to my starter problems.  I assure that I have not lost interest and am very grateful for all the help provided, but I shall probably not be in a position to provide any update until about the end of October.

Mike

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  • 1 year later...

Sorry it's been so long to close out this post, but since I've previously complained about posts not being completed with the "final fix" I thought that I should do so. When I finally resolved family issues in UK and returned home I almost immediately took the Landy off the road and started my tear down for a rebuild. I've only just, in the last couple of days, looked at the starter that had been "bush engineered" while we were miles from home.

I don't know what the engineering shop did, but the starter worked faultlessly until we got home, in total over another 2,000 km.  Hats off to "bush engineering".  When I opened it up all that I could see that was not original was a length of white insulating tape wrapped around the brush holders. Everything else appeared to be clean and normal. So, I cleaned all the components and reassembled the rotor, etc., struggled for ages to get the brushes remounted, and tested the completed unit. Connected across a 12volt battery it spun like crazy, but, of course, it wasn't turning the engine over..

Once refitted it spun but refused to engage. Removed it again, eventually removed the three recalcitrant phillips screws from the end of the solenoid and stripped the latter. Nothing untoward found, but cleaned the sliding piston and cylinder, gave them a thin smear of copper grease and re-assembled them. Refitted the starter to the motor and it worked fine ten out of ten times, turning the engine over just as it always had done, so I hope it is now fixed, but I will still fit new brushes when I get them.  I can only assume that the sliding piston was binding and failing to engage the drive with the starter ring.

Mike

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Better late than never Mike ;)

When I've ever opened up the solenoid barrel and piston, I try use as thinner lubricant as I can find, I think I threw in some silicone lub last time, for fear of gunking up the sliding motion on the piston, having said that I've been slowly building up a small collection of starter motor parts, as I've got a handful of Veleo starters which you seem to be able to pick up various spare parts on fleebay for not a lot of cash, a handy part are replacement solenoids which seem to be susceptible to moisture.

 

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