Best bet for a reliable life... RRS / D3 / D4 / FFRR?

[BogMonster]

18 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I know now there's a mobile service that will gently vibrate them loose with very low risk of snapping for a reasonable price, so the sensible-minded owner might think that while the guy's in town (the D3 forum have maintenance "meet-ups" where stuff like this goes on) it's worth investing a few quid in a set of glow plugs and getting them swapped out before it becomes an issue.

Now that's very clever

[FridgeFreezer]

Yep, it's not 100% but it's pretty close. Being sat in an office with a D3 owner / geek I hear all the stories, and TBH they seem no different than anything else LR have come up with - once they trickle down to us proles, people are enthusiastic enough about them to solve all the scary problems. Not all cars gain such an enthusiastic following. I had to find something technical on the Vauxhall Corsa forum once, it was like a bad trip into a mental asylum but with more fluffy dice.

 

12 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

Why can't garages fix things any more? Is it because they Darent spent more than the absolute minimum time on anything for fear of presenting a big bill or what?

Oh they can, it's just not everyone bothers to stop & think. My (independent mobile) mechanic kept himself up-to-date on the electronics & diagnostics and more than once solved problems that other garages who should know better had failed to fix. Not by having better kit or software, but by thinking about the problem. It's not just being able to fly the diagnostics computer (which is pretty simple these days), it's thinking about how the whole system works and why things come out as they do - no different than fault-finding non-obvious faults on a purely mechanical system, the problem is that when a computer says it's not happy with the reading from a sensor the lazy technician will replace the sensor and not notice the fact there's a hole in the pipe the sensor is in then the next lazy tech will assume the 1st would've noticed anything like that and replace the ECU, etc. etc.

[elbekko]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I had to find something technical on the Vauxhall Corsa forum once, it was like a bad trip into a mental asylum but with more fluffy dice.

Reminds me of when I tried to find a workshop manual for a Toyota Corolla... took me hours of sleuthing, page 10 of Google results, and still had to manually merge all the single-page PDFs, which were also badly translated. I'll take an LR over that heap of carp any day.

[Dave W]

The latest addition to my "fleet" is a VW Transporter (T5) that I'm converting into a camper van and, although there is a huge enthusiastic following for the vans (they even wave at each other and have arguments on forums about whether or not they should wave) and loads of aftermarket spares suppliers, it's quite scary when it comes to getting decent info on the mechanical and electrical aspects of it. You know you're heading to the dark side when you have to rely on a Haynes manual for most of the info you need !

It's a 5 cylinder diesel 2.5, they have problems with MAF sensors, cracked and warped exhaust manifolds and, on the manual versions, the fancy DMF clutches. The EGR system sticks but you can buy a bypass kit... The central locking is prone to stopping working due to water ingress into the electrics under the driver's seat, the windows in the rear are notorious for leaking when it rains and the sliding door supports/guides regularly collapse and need to be replaced.

Any of that sound at all familiar ?

For the first time in over 20 years I have a vehicle without a Land Rover badge on it and I don't even know which garages in the area can MOT and service it, let alone repair it ! With my Land Rovers of all ages I have a choice of 3 trusted specialists for any work I don't have the time/inclination to do myself, with the VW it's either a main dealer or a "normal" jobbing garage...

[Cynic-al]

I have a garage that pay for all the updates on their kit and so far have been able to fix everything including driven wires and damp in looms etc, although on occasion have had to take 2 attempts, I think it's because you don't get the best blokes until you complain that it wasn't put right first time. £45 an hour though, ok it's not audi at £100 an hour but it can soon add up. 

 

I know one garage who in the past have charged people hundreds for a head gasket change and just stuck a bottle of that fixit stuff in the rad bottle and left it running in the corner all day. 

I think we've ruined the guys post :/ Drive what you like that's my advice

[=jon=]

25 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

 

I think we've ruined the guys post :/ Drive what you like that's my advice

Not ruined in the slightest - it's all good

My head is still saying buy a 3.0 outback, stuff LPG on it and enjoy trouble free cheap motoring for many years.

My heart keeps telling me I really want a FFRR!!

[Davo]

Oh well, fully armed with the quality information from this very thread, you may as well go shopping for one! I've kept my old Rangie here in 99% Toyota country because I like it, and I can fix about everything . . . including a windscreen replacement a professional couldn't figure out. My reasoning, (such as it is), would be something like: I like it, I can keep it going, therefore I will keep it. 

[reb78]

Ok, so I'm curious about some examples and your thoughts on them.

 

This FFRR sold: http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic39786.html recently would you have taken a chance on it? I was tempted, but the mileage put me off - was that a silly decision? The final price made it look like a bargain and it went quickly when he reduced it to £7500.

This D3 is for sale http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic152412.html - seems expensive at £13295, but mileage is pretty low (is this actually a bad thing because the big service items are still to be done?)

Another D3, but much cheaper than the above, but higher mileage: http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic151531.html problems waiting to happen or a bargain that will go on for many more miles with the correct maintenance?

 

All of the above have what sound like decent service histories and the owners on those two sites are generally honest about problems, of which none are highlighted. They would be to replace my D2 with 130k on the clock, so would you do it?

[hangover]

I keep eyeing off kitted out D3's but the repair bills scare me, yes all makes have their issues but the D3/4's are having spun bearings, blown turbo's at relatively low mileage.

 Add to that the oil pump housing and control arm replacement and its starts adding up, my TDI D1 has only cost AUD$2500 in my 10 year ownership for non service related repairs but a used D3 will probably cost me that each year if i'm lucky.

[Dave W]

That FFRR was an absolute steal at that price, I wish something like that had come up when I was looking for my last one !

Generally the D3/D4 RRS FFRR market price is dominated by mileage as much, if not more than, age. Most of them will have had at least one turbo changed by around 80k miles so buying after that is not a bad thing.  Ours had had a turbo changed 6000 miles before we bought it.

If you haven't driven one and are under the assumption that the D3/D4 or FFRR is an "update" on a D2 then you really need to get out there and test drive some ! I held back moving from my V8 P38 to a FFRR because I was loathe to buy something with more mileage on it than what I had when it was just a newer model. When I actually went and drove some I realised that these are far more than just an update, they are a VERY different vehicle to anything that came before. Where the P38 was mostly a kind of natural progression from the last RR, the FFRR makes the P38 look like a Series 1 !

[Ed Poore]

Well I've owned my FFRR for about 3 years now and whilst I'm not going to admit it's been cheap I've still got it. I bought it (2007 TDV8) with just under 100k on the clock it's now over 155k. It did have a years warranty when I bought it (aftermarket) which was part of the reason why I went for it at the time. The original intention had been for it to replace the 110 as both an everyday vehicle and off-road toy.

First thing to go wrong was the lift pump in the tank died - recovered and garage fixed it and claimed it back on the warranty. The next thing was the alternator which as said isn't an expensive part but was a ***** to do and working for a couple of hours each evening took me the best part of a week to sort out. I've had a few sticking calipers which I feel is inevitable at this age of vehicle.

The front air-bags developed a leak on the way back from Wales and ended up getting Challenger to sort that out - was ~£600 for both bags and then about £150 of labour but I'm glad that they sorted it rather than me. The most expensive repair was after finishing Strata Florida it felt like I'd blown a diff or something, after a lot of time spent trying to find the issue it was narrowed down to the transfer box. Then transfer box and gearbox had to come out to basically find that there was water in the transfer box causing the clutch pack inside to lock up. I've also replaced the EGR valves but did that myself and was a fairly simple job.

But - by a long shot the most expensive thing (side from fuel given how much it's used) has been tyres, I'm sure some on here will remember me exploding one in the Lakes, over the three years it's been about £3k of tyres - but I have been using the FF off-road.

After the transfer box incident I was pretty convinced I was going to get rid of it but there were two incidents which prompted me to keep it. One was hearing it when my sister borrowed it to go hockey and it didn't sound bad at all. The second was heading off to my folks for Christmas and despite the thunderstorms and torrential rain it didn't skip a beat and I just sat back, hit the cruise control, turned up the radio and relaxed.

Put a trailer behind it and you hardly notice it - even if it's the 2 tonne milling machine that Dad won in an auction. Similarly I just got back from a weekend trip to the Highlands and it didn't miss a beat, was superbly comfortable and quick on the roads.

So cheap maintenance, definitely not, but it is perhaps "all the car you could ever want", to quote a certain Mr. Clarkson.

(Oh and if I had to pick between which is the most capable off road, the Defender or the FFRR, then hands down the FF - apart from the sodding thin walled tyres!).

[=jon=]

Just found this, which seems very cheap, but is also reasonably local to me:

http://www2.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201610058453762

 

 

[L19MUD]

That looks very good for the price, low miles and only 2 owners

[=jon=]

Cream leather and carpets though, which my better half has said will likely get filthy (and show it!) with mucky pooch paws...

[L19MUD]

My old one had cream leather and dark carpets (like this one) and it was honestly fine

I was worried about jeans making blue stains on the leather but that didn't happen, and a quick once over with the leather cleaning wipes you can get for sofas kept it nice and clean

 

Mine had done 110k when I sold it and the interior looked like new

 

Dogs kept in the boot not the back seats tho! You can also get a really nice moulded rubber mat for the boot which I have in my TDv8

 

[=jon=]

I'll go have a chat with her about it in a bit. Not in a massive rush to get one, and still haven't entirely decided if diesel or petrol is a better bet - I keep feeling there will be a big anti-diesel backlash coming up as lots of our cities are now way over the limits for pollution, Bristol has just announced they are taking measures against buses and diesel taxis...

With my annual mileage there's about £1000 difference in fuel cost a year between petrol and diesel, and there's less bits to go wrong on a petrol*. With LPG the cost falls dramatically, but I'd want to get advice about LPG on the Jag petrol engine as they are supposed to have soft valve seats and need flashlube or similar.  I'm also not sure if the missus would be happy filling it up with LPG and having to go out of her way to find stations etc - one of the reasons we are changing my current imported Subaru Legacy is that it needs Tesco or Shell super unleaded and it's a pain having to find stations in areas you don't know!

 

_{*and the supercharged petrol ticks a lot of petrolhead boxes for me!}

[L19MUD]

The non supercharged Jag engine petrols are very rare. Supercharged's sound and drive lovely but even on a run 20mpg is impossible.

For me one of the biggest improvements from my petrol BMW V8 (286bhp) vs my TDV8 (272 bhp) is the 6 speed gearbox. The 6 speed box is so much better than the older 5 speed found in the BMW petrol models

[=jon=]

I didn't realise it was quite that bad - the figures from autotrader suggest 21-22mpg mixed for the 4.2SC! Having a read up is seems you are right - most people get high teens on a run, less round town and if you clog it!!

[Dave W]

Possibly one thing to consider is that the petrols go for much less money and the newer they are the bigger the price difference. If you assume (rightly or wrongly !) that depreciation is going to be about the same as a percentage of the current value, then look at the saving you make you could be looking at quite a lot of fuel

[Ed Poore]

Added to that they have a fewer emissions related bits of carp to go wrong. Given I've now split my mileage between two vehicles and cut it back a bit I have the occasional thought that I should have gone for a petrol.

But the common "issue" that's brought up is more the frequency of fill-ups with the petrol. At least I can easily get 500+ miles out of a tank on the TDV8 and can pretty easily get 600+ miles, the best so far was Stirling to Surrey on 3/4 of a tank.

[jeremy996]

There is a thread on Jalopnik about a contributor who bought a FFRR with a "bumper to bumper" warranty. FFRR with CarMax Warranty

I was Financial Controller at one of the car warranty administrators/underwriters; if a particular make and model kept having the same issue, we would beat up the manufacturer for a contribution to the repair cost as it was an underlying problem. We had the statistics to support it!

[elbekko]

8 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

There is a thread on Jalopnik about a contributor who bought a FFRR with a "bumper to bumper" warranty. FFRR with CarMax Warranty

Ah yes, that idiot. He just can't shut up about how he likes to be shafted by the dealership.

[Davo]

As he says, " When it comes to broken thermostats, I do not ask questions. This is because I do not understand what a thermostat does. " Perfect modern car owner! 

[Cynic-al]

I gave up changing thermostats on modern cars after it took me 10 hours to do one on a frosty winters day on my beloved Fiat Bravo may she rest in pieces.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Cynic-al

[=jon=]

Speaking of warranties, does anyone have any recommendations? One option was to get a private sale and stick a decent warranty on it to negate any big bills.. Had a look at one of the companies (the one with quentin wilson, can't remember the name) and for a 'cover everything' warranty you'd be looking at a grand a year...