LPG reliability. The LEZ and future of diesel

[smallfry]

Being fed up with problems with Rover V8s in general, I was/am going to repower my 90 CSW V8. I had a nearly new 200TDI 90 back in the day, and despite it being a quantum leap compared to the older diesels, I was always underwhelmed with it. Even after uprated turbo and tuning by Warwick Banks Handling. I took it out and sold it and converted to a 3.5 EfI engine (which I still have at 22336 miles) which I found much better in all respects (for me) except for fuel consumption. Having had many problems with later, bigger capacity engines, and sick of throwing money at them, I decided to fit a Lexus 1UZFE (same as Jad) and bought a complete car as a donor, but for one reason or another this has been on the back burner for about two years now, and the 90 has sat forlornly with no engine.

Its about time something was done, so after large dose of practicality, the quest for better fuel consumption and some research, I decided to fit a BMW M57 3.0 diesel instead and have bought most of the bits to do this. Unfortunately though, during the last couple of weeks, it seems that various parties have a bee in their bonnets concerning diesel fuel and how it is going to kill us all before the end of next year, and as I am trying to build a vehicle that will hopefully last to the end of my driving days, I fear that diesel may ultimately either be banned completely, or made unusable by various prohibitive happiness taxes/charges. Especially as I live perilously close the existing London Emission Zone.

As the vehicle as it stands is currently exempt,  I am now thinking about reverting to plan A, and to this end begs my question to you guys.............

What is the reliability of LPG systems in the long term. I dont mean the engine itself, but the gas equipment, and how long should I reasonably expect a system to last ?

It seems on the face of it a good solution to the consumption problem, but is it ?

What experience do you guys have of it ? I am a petrol head at heart, and as I do have concerns about the costs of running a diesel engine, I am finding it difficult to choose between the two !

[Bowie69]

Gas equipment should last the life of the vehicle, it is well proven and far more common on the continent than here.

I have run LPG for many, many miles, and found it excellent... Even on a 1.6 Hyundai(!)

[missingsid]

LPG is OK although it is a bit of a problem for my JLR V8, the real issue is finding fuel. Loacally I have the only ASDA down south at 55p litre about 15mins away or a Shell at 60p a litre nearer. The issue becomes a problem when travelling any distance. LPG websites are not always correct and motorway journeys may not have any?

As my tank is where the spare was but bigger off road is not really an option.

[honitonhobbit]

I've been interested to note that my local LPG converter - hugely respected and one of the best in the UK - are moving away from LPG conversions to modern engines; mainly due to the number that fail comprehensively. I don't know if it's simply the LPG conversion or other factors

As for Diesel, I look at this way.

1). I don't live in London, I don't visit cities unless I have to - and then it's by train.

2). Haulage companies will still need diesel for many years to come

3). 80% of my fuel usage in my own vehicle is Biofuel - not Bio-diesel

4). My work mileage (at present) is via company car

5). Worst case scenario I have the Mpi

[elbekko]

Eh, the ECUs are a huge pain in the arse. Finding a competent installer even more so. The mechanicals are plenty reliable. Then again, so is the RV8 in my experience, so who knows.

[Soren Frimodt]

What about fitting the LS engine with the cylinder deactivation system? Should give you plenty of power when you need it, and pretty decent fuel economy most od the time, only running on four cylinders.

[Sheffield]

It seems to me that banning older diesels is inevitable. It is ideal  for politicans,

It does not hurt MPs themselves, nor upset the rich who pull their strings.

It sounds good with most voters, who drive newer cars.

It only hurts the poor and that recently discoverd group, the "just managing", who don't really matter as they don't vote, or if they do, tend to vote for the wrong parties. Make the most of your TDIs, you do not have long to enjoy them. whether it will make much difference to global warming or air pollution is neither here nor there.

[Cynic-al]

All our counterbalance forklifts run on LPG only, we never put a drop of petrol in them. They work 5 days a week day and night stop start all day long. The current oldest is 17 years old and on the gas side they have the sludge drained periodically and it had a service kit in the vaporiser a couple of years ago. On the engine side it had a new head but we think that was an overheating issue rather than an LPG issue. For the last couple of years it's had an intermittent warm start problem. It always goes but takes a while. The problem is they come out and fiddle with it and fix it for a few months then it creeps back in. I keep asking them what part it needs to fix it but they don't seem to know / can't be bothered so we've chopped it in for a new one which should be delivered in January.

OK that's LPG from the manufacturer rather than a retrofit and it's a simple setup without constant emissions checks but I think 17 years of constant stop start it pretty good going really and shows LPG can work long term.

[Snagger]

I think the biggest issue with LPG is that you can't take such a vehicle through the Channel Tunnel, and possibly some other tunnels too.  How long that'll be the case is anyone's guess.  So, you have to use ferries to the continent.  They could introduce the same rule, but it seems unlikely.

[smallfry]

Good to know that some of you have been long term users. I do understand about availability though, although I have a supplier a couple miles away (52.9p ATM) I do not know how long that might last, as it does seem to me that it is becoming LESS popular here, rather than more, as it is on the Continent. Maybe it is just the hassle of supply, who knows.

I have seen a couple of conversions that have looked like a five year old has done it, and I am sure that will do nothing for reliability OR reputation/recommendation. I was thinking of DIYing actually, and then getting it calibrated/tuned. I dont know how feasible this is yet.

A cylinder deactivation system sounds a good idea though. I will look into that. Can Megasquirt do that ?

I fear that Sheffield is correct though. The countdown is running. Mind you, I dont think it will be too many years before new cars are only available in electric. And have no steering wheels.

[Soren Frimodt]

35 minutes ago, smallfry said:

 

A cylinder deactivation system sounds a good idea though. I will look into that. Can Megasquirt do that ?

 

Problem is that you need a variable cam / pneumatic valves or similar to keep the valves open on the cylinders you don't squirt fuel into, otherwise the drag would far outweigh the benefits. So the engine has to have the mechanical design to support it as well. But I think the idea is great. Another option if you don't mind turbo-lag, is to fit a relatively small 4 cyl petrol with a turbo. Driven mindfully it will give much better mileage than a RV8, you could even do a economy map/sport map to toggle between. However I wouldn't know anything about that, I like points and carbs

[Daan]

Mine used to run on lpg. Problem is mainly if you want dual fuel: if you hardly use the petrol system, and one day you need it, chances are is doesn't work. Lines get clogged or perished parts that have been dry get stuck etc. In holland at the early beginning of LPG, quite a few cars went up in flames when they switched back to petrol and the fuel came out of a perished line and over the exhaust. If you regularly change over to petrol it should work ok. Cold start is a problem and is best on petrol. I have had to switch on the kettle once, poor hot water over the vapourizer before starting, which worked. Like with most things automotive, treat it well and it will work ok.

[missingsid]

DIY, insurers like to see an install certificate.

Non use of petrol and fuel line degredation, most systems,  all that I have heard of, always start on petrol until the engine is warm enough for LPG

[Ed Poore]

Just enjoy life while you have it 

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic49051.html

[Cynic-al]

My range rover used to start on petrol and run on it until the engine got over a certain rpm. You could override it but it wouldn't start on lpg so there wasn't really much point. I believe there is a tax advantage to lpg only vehicles? 

You can take a calor cylinder on the tunnel but not a cars lpg tank. Not really sure why but it would run on forklift bottles although there may be a tax issue as I don't think you pay road duty on that fuel?

A diy install requires a certificate but the kit supplier usually offer an inspection as part of the deal.

That said I took the lpg off mine, it was cheaper and it did run ok but the tank was in the boot which wasted a lot of space and was heavy so I lost it when I bobtailed it. I can get lpg next to where I work but the hours aren't that convenient. My plan was to use forklift bottles but never got around to it. I figured if I'm running a petrol v8 I'm running a petrol v8.

[Diff]

My 2.5 petrol 110 CSW has been running on LPG for at least 10 years. I converted it myself with a kit from Iwema. It has been utterly reliable, and I never use petrol, not even to start in sub zero conditions. This system is a simple single point system, and has no ECU. Unfortunately, most modern systems are more sophisticated and require an ECU etc.

regards, Diff.

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by Diff

[HoSS]

I lived with LPG for a while, so here's my 2p.

Channel tunnel yes its banned, but all road tunnels in EU are ok. Ferries not a big issue vs channel tunnel imho.
Some underground parking also bans it.

Being stuck for supply - If you dont have one near, there still the fuel tank as backup. In fact this is a major advantage for me, gives to huge range and backup option.

I converted mine myself with a kit from Tinley. I know that way the work is done well. They were also very helpful/ supportive.

The future of it is another matter - availablity, tax etc. I cant comment on that.

I would do it again, if the future-proof research looked good.

[=jon=]

I'll chip in as well - as I have HoSS's old 110 which he converted. I've 'uprated' it a bit by fitting a BLOS LPG carb instead of the restrictive cooker ring thing, but the basics of the kit are the same. I've considered changing it to a multi-point injection system as the better half is a bit phased by using it, but as a second car I've not got round to it yet...

In terms of the LPG, once you get used to the quirks of the system (innaccurate fuel gauge, occasionally having to start it on petrol etc) it's been no different to running on petrol. I couldn't take it on the channel tunnel when we went on holiday last year, so we went on the ferry instead... 

I'm in a similar quandry at the moment as we want to change our main car - there are petrol and diesel versions available, and I too am worried that there's going to be a big backlash against dirty diesel engines in the near future. Bristol has just banned some diesel busses and taxis, so it wouldn't surprise me if there's a new congestion charge type scheme coming for London / Birmingham etc where if you have a non Euro-x compliant diesel you pay more or aren't allowed in, or even just big tax hikes... I've already got caught out once with an imported diesel that was registered with the DVLA as '4x4 light utility' (commercial) not 'Estate' (private) which meant I couldn't take it within the M25 and the low emissions zone without paying something like 200 quid a day... 

Back to LPG - BP has just announced that they are removing all of their LPG pumps from their domestic forecourts (not sure about motorway services)... We've just moved house and now LPG is a bit more hard to get - in the end I've signed up with Countrywide Farmers who have 2 locations within a few miles of me open 24/7 which helps a bit. 

 

[Snagger]

There are at least 10 UK cities planning a ban or levy on diesels, including London, Birmingham, Southampton, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Bristol.  Germany is planning to stop sales of petrol and diesel cars in 2030, but Norway plans a ban on I/C engined cars in 2025, and the wording of the reports I have read don't make it clear whether that is sales or use, so it could potentially be the latter.  I think diesel is doomed, which is a damned shame for me because the first thing I have completed on my RRC restoration is its original 300Tdi being rebuilt by Turner Engineering, so I have spent quite a bit on something that could be a millstone.  

I'd recommend V8s or the ACR 2.25/2.5 petrol modifications and LPG now, rather than Tdi retrofits - you'll pay 10% less road tax as dual fuel users, but more importantly won't face all these restrictions, at least within the UK, and will have a smoother and quieter engine too.

[Davo]

Sensing this was my last chance, I rebuilt my V8 because I wanted a V8. I didn't think that should "one day" ever arrive a V8 would be an option by then. I would suggest that if you want a V8, then simply get one while you can. 

[honitonhobbit]

With the classic car market being worth 5.5billion a year in the UK alone, I can see there being delays.  Added to which the oil companies may see a potential loss of revenue as an issue. Maybe the yoghurt knitting pseudo-hippies will stop using cars as the easy target and go for the big polluters like ship and aircraft

[Arjan]

Having done more than 700,000 miles on LGP powered RRC I think I can be called an experienced user..

Like the other said, if the engine and systems are fitted well and maintenance is done it works very, very well. We had a 3.9 with carbs - last RR had 480 ltrs. of LPG and no petrol tank. Served me very, very well.

But, and this it the big BUT, the engine needs to be in 100 % working order, properly set up and well serviced.

[missingsid]

Interested in the BP comment, when I spoke to them this year they stated that no BP owned station will have LPG however for Franchised BP stations it is the choice of the Franchisee.

 

I am very lucky as I live in range of a Shell LPG pump and the only southern ASDA forcourt that has LPG (although the tank is labelled Propane not LPG which is supposed to be a mix of Propane and others?) so a better price than BP or Shell.

Marc

[Cynic-al]

I think what would be more likely is rather than an outright ban on diesels they will just make it gradually more expensive or say that they have to be euro 6 etc. They always hit businesses first and if you look at buses, lorries and taxis that's what they have done. By making it more expensive you get a natural phase towards something else anyway.

With regard to LPG supply a lot of the calor gas type dealers around here have pumps just you can't access 24/7 or you can buy the domestic heating cylinders and fill up at home... ... ... ...

[Mo Murphy]

Does anyone sell an off the shelf 2.5l 150 bhp petrol engine like they do with the LS3 ?

Mo