[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

10 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The problem is MS can be fitted to almost anything, but their setup may be very different to your setup - crank & cam triggers, double-stacked distributors (wankel!), coil-on-plug direct-drive etc etc. so you've got to be very careful who you copy.

LR4x4 is a good base as almost everyone is running the setup Nige sells (either because it came from Nige or because it's a popular and reliable configuration) so almost all the posts, settings, advice and tuning etc. are based on a Rover V8 running MS1 and EDIS with very similar config. Advice found elsewhere for other vehicles could be anything and could be totally wrong for your setup.

Yep, I agree re the settings and set up but I thought the interface of changing the parameters would be the same. Just trying my best to look up stuff rather than ask stupid questions and waste peoples time on the forum. I am sure people's generosity on the forum will only last for so long and I want to try and keep my teachers happy

 

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

7 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The problem is MS can be fitted to almost anything, but their setup may be very different to your setup - crank & cam triggers, double-stacked distributors (wankel!), coil-on-plug direct-drive etc etc. so you've got to be very careful who you copy.

LR4x4 is a good base as almost everyone is running the setup Nige sells (either because it came from Nige or because it's a popular and reliable configuration) so almost all the posts, settings, advice and tuning etc. are based on a Rover V8 running MS1 and EDIS with very similar config. Advice found elsewhere for other vehicles could be anything and could be totally wrong for your setup.

👍

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

I've looked it up and recommendations varies but 3 bar seems consensus. If I am reading my MLV correctly mine runs at -5 dipping regularly to -7! That seems a strange, I guess I am reading this wrong.

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

20 hours ago, lo-fi said:

Given your lack of fuel pressure I'm not surprised it's not been running very well   - it will have been very lean. The old V8 is very tolerant, but has its limits. Any progress on the fuel pressure?

Hi Lo-fi, 

Great to hear that it is not just me that 'features' don't do what they should. I think I missed something there, how did you identify I have low fuel pressure? What should it be? I actually have one filling a swirl pot and then a second new one feeding the engine. 

Fridge F

I suppose that would make sense re the trigger angle and I might have another play with trim angle at another stage. Some of the videos I have found online as for Miatas, megasquirt seems popular in that world, so maybe it is different for them.

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

So, a little update......Good news, bad news!

I did the timing on Saturday. The good news is that I checked the TDC on cylinder one and it appears to be correct and matched the TDC marker on the pulley. The second good news is that the timing appears to be set at 10 degrees BTDC so that is good. So the timing seems to be correct, I was secretly hoping that it might have been wrong.

Now the bad/strange part. I am running MS1 and as per above you should be able to alter the timing with the Trigger Angle or the Trim Angle but when I changed them and burned each change, there was no change to the timing. No ,matter what I did it stayed on 10 degrees! Maybe I am missing something  However, when I change the Fixed Angle to any positive number it is reflected at the pulley. And when back at -10 it matches whatever I put in spark table. Anyway,  timing appears to be correct so I guess I don't need to worry about it but would love to know if I am getting something wrong.

To give you all a laugh, my lambda arrived so I took off exhaust to clean up a tiny leak in weld on lambda bung but dropped some weld onto the threads...... no sensor going in there for the moment .  I was sooo close to getting a tuning drive. Ah well, there is always next week.

Thanks guys

 

 

 

 

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

9 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

As LoFi says you will find a lot of times you change one setting and it makes the engine run differently, so then you have to go back and tweak something else... that's why you really want to get the solid basics right first before spending lots of time and effort on tuning. Also, ignition first THEN fuel map.

Yep and new lambda arrived today so ready for step 2 when I get the timing right........

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

8 hours ago, lo-fi said:

I'd expect it to be lower at idle, maybe 45kpa or so. There's nothing badly wrong, just the tuning could be better. You'll find as you improve it that the rpm will rise - you're making more power - so you'll wind the throttle stop down to bring the idle down again. As I said above, I think you're probably running a bit retarded (pardon the expression), so you'll probably find it's a bit more lively as you get that sorted. I'll be interested to see what you find when you get a timing light to it. 

Yep, I have read that it should be at circa 45kpa and also that its not a biggy. I will update as soon as I get a chance to have a go at it and let you know how I succeed or fail miserably

 

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

Hi Guys,

Didn't get to it today so will be the weekend.

6 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

EDIS with no SAW connected will be rock solid 10btdc.

Also, with ref to the original post;

In the MS settings the "fixed angle" can be set to various things OR "-10" to use the spark map, but there's also the trim angle to be taken into account... TBH it's a bit confusing, so what I do to set the timing is save my settings, then make the bottom corner of the spark map (where it idles) all 10's so I know that the true overall advance (as seen by the engine) should be 10deg, and I can then check & adjust the trim angle, or the pointer, or draw a new marking (again, 4.6 has no markings).

Thanks for confirm on SAW and interesting way of making sure it is fixed at 10 deg with the spark table, although mine is idling at 900 rpm and 70kpa so I would have to change nearer the top corner ! I've been reading up on that as well, but that is the next challenge. Basics first and one step at a time.

Tks

Daragh

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

10 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Correct, just a big socket on the crank

😏   doh! You live and learn, makes sense I suppose. tks

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

5 hours ago, lo-fi said:

As far as tuning advance goes, aim for having it run the nicest and getting max rpm for a given amount of throttle is about as close as you'll get to a poor man's measure of reaching max torque. If it's pinging, you've gone too far, though! I'd suggest you have a pretty good understanding before getting stuck into that, however. If it's a decent MS kit, the spark table that came with the ecu should be fine to get you up and running. 

Hi Guys,

Hi-Lo,

Thank you for the clear and informative reply. I have actually read up a lot and each time I re-read I seem to learn a little bit more. The general information out there will tell you that you are looking for 10 degrees BTDC and will explain how to do it, but it ddoes not tell you how to check if this setting is specifically suitable for your individual engine. Your advise above is great and a simple way to test, just what I was looking for.

Jon,

Again, thank you for your clear and informative comments. My Landie is in fact up and running and the map is directly from Nigle and unchanged, so I would guess that it is fairly robust. It appears generally down on power accross the board and so I am making sure the basics are sound before changing anything else. I am actually running MS1, so our screens differ (I have come accross some examples of MS2 interface). However, from your comments I understand where you are going with it and I will therefore apply accordingly to my own screens. Strangly, in this regard I have actually found varying advice as to weather I should alter the 'Trim Angle (Deg)' or the  'Triggger angle (Deg)' to alter timing! I think MS2 simplifies this.

Bowie,

I am guessing from your comment that I have this wrong  I presumed that I should remove belts before attempting to manually turn the engine. I guess you are about to tell me I don't?

 

Thanks guys for all the help. I am hoping to have a go at this tomorrow. I actually bought an AccuSpark timing gun (as they were meant to be good and reasonably priced) to learn and try more but it will not pick up a signal from the new coil leads, although it does work on my other cars. I have borrowed one from my mechanic so hopefully that will work. 

Anyway, I will have a play tomorrow and see how I get on.

Thanks again.

 

 

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

Hi Jon,

Sorry,  I missed your initial comment - Are you talking about setting the base timing, or after a spark map?

To be honest, I'm a bit of a novice so not sure how to answer the above. The engine is being run by the MS1 and therefore I would presume the map will be involved. So I guess to answer your question, I presume I am setting it after map..... but I dont know how else to do it. How do you set base timing without ECU? 

Is base timing the timing at idle and using the map is checking timing under load ie up the rev range?

Tks again.

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

Thanks guys,

As per Garry, it can be between 3 and 10, but is there a way of telling what is the best degrees for mine? I'm running regular pump fue of RON 95l.

Jon, to clarify, it is an MS1 with EDIS so no distributor. So, based on my understanding of your advice, I keep changing the timing in tunerstudio till it matches the mechanical TDC timing based on strobe i.e. set TS fixed angle to zero and alter trim angle until the timing gun reads TDC on the pully and then this tells me what degrees BTDC it should be? I'm not sure I have this correct as this would surly mean my timing, if based on TDC would be zero advance. Perhaps this was a bad example. Maybe what will happen in reality is that I keep trimming the angle until it shows TDC on pully and this will correspond to a positive BTDC figure eg 3 or 10 or whatever which will then tell me my correct timing? So, have I got the mechanics of your advice correct?

Bowie69, identifying actual TDC might be a good idea aswell, it just the thought of taking off the belts here is -1 is not appealing to day  

Thanks guys,

[Correct spark advance for RV8 3.5]

Hello,

This may be a 'how long is a piece of  string question', but I am trying to figure out the correct timing for my RV8 3.5.

Details: 1995 3.5 RV8 standard (no tuning or fancy cams) running MS1 and edis

The general concensus is 10 degree BTDC but I have read a few posts that suggest 8 and one that said 7.

So, my question is how do I know what is the best settting for mine? I read about adjusting it till torque flattens but I have no way of measureing that in my driveway. Is there a more DIY way of figuring what is best or is it just seat of pants?

Thanks

[MS sensors set up clarrification]

Thank you for advice.

I did bench test again after previous comment, got lambda red hot and used the two pins and not the body housing for earth ie the black and grey but I got no reading on volt meter.

The heater circuit seems to be ok giving a resistance of 9 ohms.

After checking the wiring and correcting it a couple of days ago, i put lambda in anyway. It gave me the reading of 14.7 and I thought that this was a good sign as it did not register anything the previous time I put it in.

But I think each time it keeps coming back to the lambda being broken.

I guess the EGO was not work previously due to temp not getting high enough and as you say, it does now but incorrectly.

So maybe I'll ask Santa for a Spartan 2!!

[MS sensors set up clarrification]

Ok, good news..... there was no stat in there at all...... good advice FF. I have fitted one (82 degrees) and then let it heat up and took it for a couple of runs...... and low and behold CLT now hits the 80's. Further good news is that the Gego appears to be working and it is running better, I even got it into 5th for a little bit

Now for the (potentially) bad news. The first run was with original settings and showed the 02 moving a tiny amount from 0.0 to 0.2. On the second run, I changed my settings to match your (Fridge) Open loop mode settings. I didnt actually notice any difference but the o2 did not register at all. Does this mean the sensor is dead??? I have attached the two files if required.

Quagmire, thank you for the clarrification, that clears it up brilliantly. Simple and easy to understand for a novice like me. tks 

So the EGO appears to be helping me move better, but I need to read up on VEAL and figure out what to do there. Alternatively, if my NB is not working, it might be worth spending a bit more on the Spartan rather than getting another NB?

 

[MS sensors set up clarrification]

Thanks FF,

That explains a lot and makes perfect sense now. I was actually mixing things together, as I didn't get that there were two completely separate tuning systems. I thought WB just gave a more detailed and accurate version of the same system. I will re-read some stuff now that I have a better understanding.

I have left all setting as per Nigle, so not sure why it is in closed loop, but I can change that I suppose. I could also change the Active above temp to 50 to trick it into action if my CLT is giving faulty readings, but I will check my stat first as I would guess it would not be wise to have it tuning under incorrect conditions.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[MS sensors set up clarrification]

Hi FF,

Thank you again.....

Ok, I will not sweat the CLT, but will check out stat anyway.

Ok, I will leave settings in dialogue box as per Nigle.

Ok, so AFR guage staying at 14.7 could indicate a problem. I have checked previous data logs and the C02 only moves from min 0 to max .02 and Gego stuck at 100%. I had this set to zero when the lambda wasnt connected so I will make sure it is set correctly at 1 and take a run in the morning and see whats what. Thanks for the log to show what it should look like.

'AFR tables can be in a couple of places - in the ECU when used for target-AFR (voltage) with a WB sensor, or in TunerStudio where it can be used similarly OR, with data-logging / cunning maths it can do some calculations either on the data-log or live running to try and work backwards from the switch-point of the NB sensor and how much EGO correction was applied to try and bring your fuel map towards the target AFR map. However, that relies on EGO correction being active. That's how auto-tune works'

1) So I don't have a WB, so for the moment I guess I can ignore everything in bold above?

2) Can you confirm if my understanding of the second half of the above should be either:

• that I do not have to do anything other than make sure EGO correction is set at 1 and let the ECU atomaticall do its thing and it will perform a continuous tune?

OR

• when you refer to 'data-logging', does this refer to recording data logging in TS and then pressin the VE analysis button?

3) Also, am I correct in understanding that I do not need a completed ARF table unless I am tuning with a WB? When you state 'ARF tables can be in a couple of places', I cannot find one. Any table in TS or Meggatune is blank. This last part may not be relevant if I do not need one, but thought I would ask the question for clarity.

 

Sorry if these questions seem obvious but I am trying to get a clear understanding.

I appreciate your patience and help.

 

 

[MS sensors set up clarrification]

Hey guys, thank you for feedback and advice.

There is a very high chance that I am mixing things up. I read and read threads and manuals and seem to get confused a fair bit. The fog lits and then decends again!

FF, you are correct re getting basics right and I suppose this was my intention in asking the above questions re my sensors. I wondered if the CLT reading would cause some problems and you have confirmed it may. I do not have a clue what stat is in here but I guess replacing it would be a good idea in any event. Dave, I did do the temp v ohms test and the results are above but you are correct they do not match any of the three different values I have found in various threads. The removal of the MAT did not have any impact on the CLT reading. I will however do as sugested and check earths for a learning experience if nothing else but, I think the simple and probably best solution is a new sensor. 

Re tuning, I do understand the difference between wide and narrow band,  but unfortunately did not understand that the arf table was wide band only, doh! Dave, I understand the wide band is the holy grail, but like yourself I am happy to stick with NB, although I don't think that mine will ever be as well traveled as yours! So, I understand that the guage will not show a varying reading, as it is simply either lean or rich, but I thought it strange that it did not move from the 14.7 point at all. So how then do I see if I am running rich or lean as I am driving? Also to clarrify, with NB I cannot use tuner studios to tune? So how then do I do it i.e. auto tune it? Dave you mentioned 'NB always tunes by voltage, not AFR and you pretty much just set a switchover voltage', could you maybe explain how? I guess this is a really stupid and basic question, sorry.

I will get the CLT sorted first but my vehicle is up and running but is down on power when I get to 4th gear, it cannot hold it, so I thought a bit of tuning might help.

FF re the dialog boxes you included, mine are different so I suppose you are suggesting once the sensors are sorted I should change to match?

Thanks again for all the guidance and sorry if I am being a bit thick.

 

[MS sensors set up clarrification]

Hi Guys,

A little update and further questions if that is ok.

I left MAT and CLT in as per advice although temp still only gets to 62 (I'm wondering if that has anything to do with following problem). I then checked and changed my Lambda wiring and now have a reading  However, the needle stays at circa 14.7 the whole time, during driving or reving. Is this normal as it is a narrow band?

Anyway, as Lambda appeared to be working'ish I thought I would try a tuning run. TS will not tune. I have attached the message/warning I got refering to my filter for 'Min CLT' settings. I have no idea what that is/means. I have looked and cannot find it, even to look at what the setting are. Obviously I have not changed anything from origginal Nigle setttings. Can anyone help

My last question refers to my ARF table which appears to be 1) in volts and 2) showing nearly all zeros. I have found another thread which discusses this but does not provide and definitive answers. If I change my settings to a wideband the regular table around target 14.7 appears, but this is obviously not a solution. However, in the tread there is a sugggested table, which I have included in the attached document. Should I therefore  1) simply input these figures   2) are there other figures that anyone know of   3)change table away from volts, if so how?

As always, any and all help appreciated. I feel that I'm so close to getting it running properly. The mountains and mud are beckoning

Tks

 

 

 

 

MLV Tuning error.docx

[MS sensors set up clarrification]

Thanks for reply and advice.

Glad I now know my wiring is correct for lambda, I guess a new sensor is needed.

MAT - Ok I will look at accel enrichment. It is as per Niggle's standard setings but I will have a look. I have not had a working lambda ever, so no tuning done yet. So I suppose a new Lambda will allow me to start this.

CTL - yes it is working ie increasing as you would expect, but the figures seem in correct as per above discription. I do not have an IR gun, but rather than spend money on it I might try a new sensor first.

Tks

[MS sensors set up clarrification]

Hello,

It has taken a while but I have finaly got my megasquirt running. It is not running right and has very little power but as has been mentioned numerous times in posts ‘get the basics right first’. So I have some problems/questions regarding sensors that I hope someone can help with. I have searched and read many many treads on this and different forums and seem to get conflicting info!! I am sorry that it is so long but I am a novice and therefore giving a lot of info so that I can get simple answers😊

I’m running MS1 v3 029v on a 3.5V8, full kit bought from Nigle a year or more ago! TS file attachedif required.

Lambda Narrow band 4 wire from Nigle:

I think it is broken. I am getting 9ohms across the two white heater wires so I guess that part is working but when I probe the black wire (which I think is the signal and hence correct one) and earth it on the sensor case and heat with blow torch, I get 0v. So do I need a new one or am I doing something wrong?

Second question on lambda is wiring. I have one white going to general chassis earth. Second white goes to white/purple wire connected through a fuse to the wire leaving relay going to the fuel pump. The black is connected to Blue and goes to 24 on D37. So, does the grey get connected onto the loom ie to one of the black wires going into the D37 plug OR does it get connected straight to the chassis earth?

MAT Sensor from Nigle:

It appears to be working, showing a gradual min 8.9 to max 19.4. However, engine runs better when the sensor is disconnected! Accelerating results in a ‘nothing gap’ before anything happens but when disconnected no gap and engine pulls better! Does this point to MAT sensor failing or maybe something else?

CLT Sensor readings:

Sensor is not new but standard rover part (lucas 73355) so Easytherm should not be needed. The sensor appears to work and the temp moves up gradually but the figures seem off. On MLV it shows the min as -40 and max 50 for my attached log. Ignition on 18.9 and grows gradually after that. I think Fridge mentioned that if it registers -40 it is broken. However, I didn’t know if that meant it always stays at -40? The max temp I have seen it go to is 65 which is obviously very low for a v8! I have bench tested resistance and they are as follows: 20*=2000; 43*=1200; 61*=630; 80*=500; 90*=350. I have found three different tables/figures for resistance in other MS threads and they all differ as to what are the correct resistance figures  for a V8, and none of them match my sensor. I have tried to find where the readings are in the ECU set up but no joy. So, do I simply need a new sensor or is my ECU reading?

Any help gratefully appreciated.

 

2018-11-06_10.54.59.msl check temp from cold.msl

[No power to ECU on ignition]

Fair enough. Tks

[No power to ECU on ignition]

Cheers  

.... just to clarify, I meant the upgraded version of the basic free Tunerstudio ie MS upgrade edition or MS ultra

[No power to ECU on ignition]

Good evening all,

So it is official. I am an idiot.

I am another one of 'those people' who wired the coils incorrectly!! I swore that it would not happen to me. How difficult could it be. I checked and rechecked! So, this evening I took the pictures and looked again. It seemed to be that it was only when I drew them on a piece of paper that it made sense. Go figure.

So good news, wires switched, new plugs and she fired up immediately. Ticking over too high at 1200 but at this moment I really don't care. Nearly 12 months to the day and she now runs. Happy boy.

Thank you to everyone for the help and suggestions. I may bother you guys again for tuning help.

Actually, is the upgrade for Tunerstudios worth it / suitable for MS1?

Thanks again

Daragh

[No power to ECU on ignition]

Thanks a mil, you must have given those photos to Nigel, they are the exact photos I use as a reference. Tks