Cluaran
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Posts posted by Cluaran
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5 hours ago, Bowie69 said:
No probs... to be clear, no insult was intended, as with @Stellaghost above
No insult understood Bowie. Thanks to you and everyone who shared their experience and offered good sound guidance. What a great forum this is! So... to infinity and beyond... ! 🙂
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13 minutes ago, paime said:
Whereabouts are you based, @Cluaran. Happy to lend a hand with the chassis swap of you're nearby.
That's very kind Paime but I'm afraid it would be quite a trek for you. I'm in the North West Highlands - 4-5 hours from you. But when I get organised I might well give you the tally-ho! (It's my location which makes me so damned intent on trying to do the impossible... 😂)
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2 minutes ago, hurbie said:
no need to , a friend of mine own's a 88 serie's 3 , swapped the chassis a good 20 years ago for a galvanised one , didn't do anything to it , and it is always stored outside ..... so far no rust anywhere ..
(we live very close to the Nordsea , and in the netherlands they use a lot of road salt in winter time)
That's very reassuring Hurbie. Here in the Highlands we get plenty of road salt and there's no shortage of water! 😉
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18 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:
You'd spend more time repairing that than swapping a new chassis under it.
Unless you are a very skilled welder/fabricator (and judging by that you are even asking this question, likely not) there's just no way of making that good and safe again.
Thanks Bowie. Sometimes I guess we just need others who have 'been there' to confirm what our own eyes would prefer not to see and tell us to 'stop'! The safety and time aspect I think is the decider for me. I guess the real point is that however good a welder may be, he can't weld onto such a poor foundation... and I think Gazzar hit the nail on the head by referring to the insurance aspect. Many thanks for your contribution. 👍
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6 minutes ago, Gazzar said:
Honestly, in the UK insurance environment, that's scrap. On an island where brakes are optional and timber is acceptable to fix broken chassis, maybe okay?
If you were ever in a crash and they could pin 5 percent of the blame on your welding, you'd be in prison.
I think that's a fair and pretty decisive comment! And I guess the horrors which you have had to deal with in the past have been, perhaps, less horrific! I am just amazed at how such deterioration came about so quickly. Thanks for the honesty.👍
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16 hours ago, Gazzar said:
For what it's worth.
I did what you're proposing, see my lightweight rebuild thread.
But in a decent, well lit workshop, with a few years of chassis repair experience.
And I had to convince myself it was the right thing to do. It was for me, as the chassis was the largest remaining part of my vehicle. I also felt it was the right thing to do for a vehicle that had served.
For you? A new defender chassis isn't cheap, but not expensive. It would be solid, true, reliable for a long time, and add value to your vehicle more than anything else.
There's more fun fitting bits to a chassis, than chasing rust holes around with a welder.
I think there's a new Polish manufacturer that's quite good value, so might be an option.
Thanks Gazzar, I'll check out your thread. Very impressed with your own persistence... and common sense! 🙂
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Thank you very much gentlemen! I hear the core advice loud and clear. As promised, here are some pictures taken this morning showing the problem. (I can almost hear all the bad language! 😂 I certainly used some! ) My own first reaction was that this was surely the end of the road... but niggling doubts and a bit of hope crept in which I've been trying to balance ever since. It does look pretty terrible doesn't it? Has anyone ever successfully restored anything like that before? A new chassis seems such an obvious option... but COULD this ever be made to hold out another year or so... for example using Stellaghost's suggestion... or is it really just too far gone and a complete waste of time even to contemplate? Gazzar's comment about tackling such stuff in a decent well-lit workshop (as opposed to on gravel with midges up my nose!) really hit home... But honestly, Jeez! how could it have got so bad...? (I should add that the vehicle has been standing unused on axle stands under tarpaulin for well over two years as I tinkered with it ...) Many thanks for your straight-talking. So, what's the verdict?
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Many thanks for your sobering words Steve. I will post some pictures tomorrow as suggested. It really does feel as if I'm on the brink. Having tackled the rear of the vehicle to my satisfaction, the front has been largely stripped (cab, bonnet, wings, radiator...) because I wanted to address footwell rust (driver's side already cut out and removed) which revealed the state of the front end of the chassis... So I have pretty good access to the rail. But the sequencing of any remedial work, and doing it safely on the gravel, especially after I had to remove the offside coil spring, is indeed daunting (I would use plenty of axle stands) and really could only be justified to buy time. I really appreciate your comments about your own past experience dealing with rust and wasting time - I often need a kick up the backside to know when to quit 😵 ... As you say, the pictures may help to tip the balance.
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Thanks Stephen/Stellaghost. I think you've described with better words what I've been stumbling towards. But can I just clarify if you mean using the the existing chassis rail as the pattern from which to fabricate a completely new chassis rail (i.e. box section) which replicates and could replace the original if the original crashes... or to make a model of the original (a 'framework' with all the important points) which can be referred to if the original crashes whilst I'm trying to weld sections on to the remaining good metal?... if that makes sense?
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Thanks Cackshifter and Western. Yes, I fully grasp the advice about not welding over internal rust and the potential future heartache... The challenge I see is how much of the cack I can shift (geddit?) to reach good metal on the outside in particular. I'm concerned that I might have to remove so much that the remaining good metal buckles. So I've been trying to think through a strategy whereby I firstly remove and treat as much internal rust as possible before welding on 3mm plate over the good/better metal on the inside of the rail to reinforce, and then tackle the outside - welding over the remaining good metal and then welding on a new bottom. Effectively encasing the rail before welding on a new outrigger/spring mount. However, it really does feel like a cross-roads and I'll have a good read of Western's thread before deciding whether buying time is a false economy. But, Jeez! the previous owners must have parked in seawater!
Thank you also for the .pdf of the manual Cackshifter. Unfortunately, this is the same kind of diagram I have in my own version and I just don't seem to be able to work out how to read it. I can't seem to find any reference to the distance between the 110 dumb-irons. As I said, perhaps it's me. 😐
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Hello Gents,
Slow progress rebuilding my 1999 110 TD5. Working from back to front I've discovered awful, terrible, extensive rust on the front offside chassis. So bad that I was able to waggle off the coil spring mount by hand, the outriggers look like sieves and the dumb irons look like they have been filled with chocolate flake. So bad that large portions of the external wall and bottom of the rail have disintegrated. So bad that I am really in two minds whether it can be restored or whether I should bite the bullet and get a galvanized chassis. I fear that would be quite a palaver however as I'm doing this on the gravel drive with no ramp as autumn and winter approach. So I've decided to do my absolute damndest to either weld in patches or completely encase remaining good metal with new steel plate and to reinforce as much as possible. Has anyone else ever reached this lowpoint? Anyhow, the main point of this post is to ask if anyone can advise where I can find the basic dimensions for a 110 chassis. Perhaps it's me but I find it hard to decipher the diagrams I have found in the Workshop Manual published by Brooklands (LRL 0410BB). For example, I can't seem to work out the distance between the 110 dumb-irons - which is given for a 90 chassis. And it's not clear (to me at least) which points on the chassis are used as the datums from which measurements are taken. I'm concerned that with the vehicle on ramps and the offside chassis weakened these may have sagged or moved and I may want to ratchet-strap them back into place. Any advice on how to keep my spirits ups...? 😕
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Thanks all! I'd never done this before and didn't want to knacker the switch (after having had to use lots of bad words and violence getting the steering column free from the UJ splines). I tried the punch/chisel method but my chisel wasn't pointy or thin or hard enough to make much impression. In the end I drilled starter holes on the top of the shear bolts using centre drill bits, then used a 3mm then 4mm left-handed drill bit. One of the bolts 'caught' whilst drilling and spun out no problem at all. For the other, I drilled a bit deeper and then tapped in a bolt extractor (the type that look like blunt drills and are turned with an adjustable wrench); this worked a complete treat (I don't always have much success with these). So, thanks for your help. Job done!
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Hello Gents,
I'm stripping my 1999 TD5 110 hardtop working from back to front. I want a completely bare bulkhead to cut out and repair serious rust and am currently about to remove the steering column. I believe I have to remove the ignition switch unit - which I'd like to reuse - before doing so, in order to pull it through the bulkhead. Does anyone have any tips for how to do so e.g removing the sheared security bolts which clamp it to the column, using a stud extractor, drilling out, angle grinder...? What works without ruining the switch? Thanks.
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I finally got the TD5's fuel tank back in place (with some niggles) - working solo! I thought I'd share my experience with others who may be struggling. At first I tried to manoeuvre the tank AND guard into position together using a trolley jack and bits of wood. But this proved very irritating with the guard slipping out of position and getting in the way. I then removed this and used the trolley jack and a piece of wood to lift the tank roughly into position. I then used two ratchet straps: one strung up under the chassis to the front of the tank (where there's a kind of flat cutaway channel ideal for accepting it); and another strung up to the rear. I was able to remove the trolley jack. By manipulating the straps, I was able to raise either the front or rear of the tank to adjust the angle for access to the top of the fuel pump. As noted previously, I had attached the shorter fuel hoses to the pump whilst the tank was on the ground and had waggled them through the side of the chassis in readiness for attaching to the fuel filter, but I have to say that attaching the longer fuel hoses to the pump was a @&&$*## pain because when I'd achieved sufficient space for my hand to reach them, it proved difficult to align and insert the hoses into their sockets. I'm really not sure why this should have been so difficult. They seemed simply too short and required much effort and sore fingers to push them forward. I'm concerned that I may have slightly kinked the high-pressure hose whilst forcing it forward and after having to use bent nosed pliers to push it home. I am seriously considering replacing these hoses with longer reinforced rubber fuel lines - and wonder if anyone knows what internal diameter is needed and where to get the plastic hose-end inserts/shrouds that push into the pump sockets?
With the hoses all re-connected, I was able to remove the rear ratchet strap and, lying on my back, to lift the tank guard's rear bolts into position on the rear cross-member and hold it whilst I shimmed towards the front of the vehicle to attach the guard to the forward cross-member with two bolts. The foward ratchet strap was then removed completely with ease.
Another learning point: having done all this, I discovered that the fuel breather pipe had come to rest forward of the tank's filler spigot and so was unable to reach the filler cap breather tube. The thought of undoing all the previous work was unbearable so I removed the tank guard's forward bolts from the chassis cross member (the guard remained in place under tension) and used the trolley jack and wood to lower the rear of the tank sufficiently to 'persuade' the breather hose to move to the rear of the spigot. Re-fixing the guard was no problem. The breather hose still seemed a bit too short so I used a degree of brute force to bend and stretch it until it did what it was told and was kept in place with a new jubilee clip. So... it CAN be done!
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Thanks chaps. Right now it seems so near and yet so far... Filbee - your method (well done, by the way!) is very much along the lines I've been trying. I'll try to unclip the fuel lines as you both suggest to gain that extra millimetre or so...
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Hello Gentlemen,
After rebuilding the Salisbury axle on my 1999 110 TD5 and welding on a new rear quarter, I'm now reassembling and as a first step, attempting to reinstall the plastic fuel tank. I'm doing so single-handed (although I understand assistance is recommended). So far, I haven't sworn so much since the last time I hadn't sworn so much. I was able to fit the fuel pipes between the pump and the filter on the ground then waggle them through the chassis - as I did with the fuel filler and breather hoses. But trying to get the tank into a position to fit the longer fuel pipes to the pump has been a little bit frustrating. I'm trying to use a trolley jack to hold up the rear of the fuel tank guard and an axle stand to hold up the front part... but there's a lot of slipping and sliding. The fuel pipes just seem to be too short to line up with their sockets. Is it humanly possible to do this without help?
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Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. It never ceases to amaze me how helpful people on this forum are! Thanks for sharing your ideas and experience. The idea of clipping the cabling to the top of the chassis for ease of access is extremely appealing. The weekend approaches...
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Hello Gentlemen,
The rear quarter of my 1999 110 TD5 was rotten so I cut it off and welded on a new one. Prior to the cutting and welding I had removed the wiring bundle from inside the right hand chassis rail for protection by pulling it through from front to rear. But stupidly I then removed the rope I had pulled through with it. I now have to find a way to pull the cabling back through the chassis. So far I've been trying to feed in form the front firstly soft and then high tensile fencing wire with small loops on the end in an effort to reach the rear so that I can attach a rope and then pull the cabling through. But I keep hitting internal obstructions (plus a heap of rust... more welding to come...) which I can't seem to get past. I have yet to try feeding from the rear to the front over the main bend (which I'm about to have a go at) but I wondered if anyone has experience of this? Perhaps the things sparkies use to feed wires through house walls/floors? Or even some means of leaving the cabling outside of the chassis... if advisable? Many thanks.
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3 hours ago, pete3000 said:
I got shot of my 07 plate passat for a similar reason, albeit at the other end of the car. The rear suspension drop arm bushes use a similar alloy into steel with a rubber core setup. I was quoted £500 to renew them as they needed the tracking adjusting as it would wear a rear tyre out every 6000 miles. Several garages tried to losen them on the ramp to ajust the caster/camber???? before saying £500....
Experience is knowing when to have a good go and when to give it to someone else.
Pete
Haha! Suddenly I feel even more less alone!
And, yes, I probably didn't apply Badger110's 'f*ck it' principle early enough... but I couldn't believe such a simple task would prove so ridiculously problematic. I suspect a similar fate to your 07 plate awaits my vehicle. I hope you're happier with whatever you replaced it with!
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On 1/26/2021 at 7:36 PM, Badger110 said:
When you have eliminated all possibilities, only impossibilities remain.
therefore did you try throwing a damp tea bag at it?
no? Never mind...you’ll never know now.
on a serious note, fair play for your persistence to do it...my age makes me use ‘ f*ck it ‘ approach after a few hours when trying to do this sort of thing
Hats off to you
12 hours ago, cackshifter said:I think, if it were mine, when it gets home, and probably on the one day it's summer, I'd take the bolts out one at time and replace them with duralac or tefgel on the threads or maybe a reasonably mild loctite to stop water getting in and history repeating itself. Thanks for letting us know what happened.
Lovely! Thank you chaps! From now on the damp tea bag suggestion will be at the top of the list!
And the 'f*ck it' approach is quickly gaining ground! Now onward to reassembling all the bits on my delayed 110 TD5 rebuild ... 'Tomorrow is another day!'
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Hello Gentlemen,
As promised, this is to bore you stiff… er, I mean… update you on how things went with this particular challenge. Bad weather slowed progress under my tarpaulin outdoors a great deal hence the delay. But first I’d really like to thank everyone who offered practical advice and suggestions on how to remove steel bolts seized in aluminium, in situ - albeit here on a VW Passat. This is such a common problem that it was brilliant to hear how others have gone about the task. Hopefully others may find the ideas shared helpful. I certainly have. So, thank you!
Sadly, however, in my own case - despite your encouragement – and much as I hate to admit it, I have had to admit defeat. I simply could not get those bolts to budge. I tried almost all the ideas put forward, but ultimately, I had to face up to the fact that I had too little workspace and access beneath this vehicle; that welding nuts on to sheared bolts directly upwards using a MIG welder was much harder than anticipated (perhaps my welding technique needs reviewing – although the fact that I kept tearing either nuts, bolt stubs, or welded extension blobs off suggests that I actually was getting good penetration); and that I was never able to get my plumber’s torch to put enough heat into either the aluminium or the bolt to break the bond as landroverforever feared. The final straw came as I seemed to be making progress with a 10mm screw-type bolt extractor which finally bit into and seemed to start turning one of the seized bolts … but then snapped off in the bolt! At this low point, she who must be obeyed also pointed out that the vehicle was now urgently required by the family.
A local workshop advised that despite my misgivings I would be able to drive the vehicle VERY slowly and carefully to them and so I did so with a heavy heart. After a couple of days I received a call from the mechanic who said that he had removed the aluminium subframe in which the bolts were seized in order to tackle them off the vehicle. However, despite plenty of magic dust he too had been unable to free them without causing unacceptable damage to the subframe and threads!! Unfortunately, he does not have a Bridgeport Mill as suggested by vulcan bomber ! The 10mm seized bolts had well and truly corrosively ‘welded’ themselves in. A second-hand subframe has therefore been ordered and will be fitted later this week, allowing new suspension brackets and bushes to be fitted with new bolts.
So it appears that no matter what technique I might have tried on the gravel beneath the vehicle, nothing was likely to succeed. However, I don’t feel downhearted, because I genuinely did as much as I feel was possible given the constraints. I understand that this is a very common problem with VW and a stupid design failure which makes what should be a simple task both expensive and time-consuming. But I’ve learned a lot trying to address it, not least, as one experienced Youtube mechanic vouched, that not everything you try to keep a job simple will work, in which case you have no option but to replace the whole component as in my case.
But I thought it might be useful to list out the techniques I attempted – and some others I never got round to – which may well work for others facing similar problems:
1. Where sheared-off bolts project above the surface: weld on nuts. Give sharp blows to the nut whilst cooling to try and break any corrosive bonding and slowly waggle the nut to and fro by hand trying each time to increase outward movement.
2. As above but instead of nuts, weld on bolts which have had the end to be welded bevelled for better penetration. (Seen but not tried)
3. Drill centrally into bolts above or below surface. Weld on nuts. Proceed as above. The idea is that weld metal in the drilled hole will give greater penetration and strength.
4. Where sheared-off bolts are below the surface: weld on successive blobs of metal to create blobby extensions long enough to be given sharp blows and to be able to:
i. Weld on nuts
ii. Apply vice grips
iii. Apply rounded bolt extractors (i.e. just to ‘grab’)
5. Drill centrally into bolts using successively larger drills. Hammer in a bolt extractor of some kind – I tried both screw-type and square profile and I even tried torx and spline bits.
6. Drill centrally into bolts using successively larger Left-Handed Drill bits. The idea is that the larger size(s) could ‘bite’ and spin the bolt out.
7. Drill centrally and try to drill out the bolts completely. DIFFICULT. Start with centre drill bits. Increase size to just below bolt diameter/close to threads, then pick out remaining threads or try to use a punch to tap them free. (Tried in part then chickened out opting to try a bolt extractor first… which then snapped!)
8. If a sufficient length of bolt, or ‘blob’ projects and a nut or ‘new’ bolt has been welded to it, try using a good car battery – positive to the bolt, negative to the component. This will get the bolt extremely hot (careful) and can break corrosive bonds. Then try to move the nut. (Seen not tried).
9. Some techniques recommended welding steel washers to the seized bolts and then welding nuts to the washers – the idea being to provide greater attachment to the bolt via both a washer and nut and perhaps to prevent a seized nut from being welded to a steel rather than aluminium component. It never worked for me. I also tried to use a strip of copper piping shaped into a washer beneath a steel washer so that I could get maximum heat from the welder. This merely resulted in the copper washer melting (!) – clearly not thick enough and it didn’t work either anyway.
10. An induction heater coil - EXPENSIVE - placed over the sheared bolt or welded blob and nut, heats these up to an extremely high temperature and seems to break corrosive bonds with ease – at least that’s what the Youtube videos I watched showed. (Alternatively try the car-battery technique in point 8 above) Worth a try if you can beg, borrow or otherwise get one. (Seen but not tried)
11. Having learned the hard way, I strongly recommend:
i. Use stubby (non-flexible) centre drill bits to start holes in bolts after centre-punching as accurately as possible: lubricate
ii. Use cobalt or carbide drill bits (HSS bits will blunt quickly): lubricate
iii. Give sharp blows to nut/bolt/blobs after welding and allow to cool before attempting to turn
iv. Go gentle with any impact wrenches and maybe start by hand first if possible – always waggling to and fro: my seized bolts were 10mm diameter – it may be possible to be rougher with larger sizes
v. Try to use real penetrating oil on the seized bolts if access is possible and give it plenty time to work – perhaps several applications
vi. Heat: as much as possible; heat aluminium first (expands faster); or heat steel and quench with water – anything to break bonding
12. Things I wasn’t able to try but I certainly will in future:
i. I use a MIG welder and I don’t have and so wasn’t able to try using a stick-welder as suggested by ballcock. I don’t know if that would result in putting more heat into the seized bolts. But in future I would give this a go. On the shopping list!
ii. Troll Hunter suggested using left-handed taps smaller than the diameter of the seized bolts and then using left-handed bolts both to create an ‘extension’ on which to attach a car-battery (point 8 above) and to turn the bolt out
iii. A thicker copper washer or plate to concentrate any weld as suggested by bowie 69 would allow more aggressive welding to the steel bolt without affecting the aluminium
iv. Using a die grinder – a heavier version of a Dremel - as suggested by taurion, to grind out most of the sheared bolts and then pick out the thread spirals. Definitely worth a go (can’t afford a Bridgeport!!) and on the shopping list.
v. A strong caustic soda solution dripped onto the seized bolts – as suggested by junglie – to dissolve corrosion would be well worth trying if access was possible
So, there you go. I reckon that with more time (e.g. saturating and dissolving the corrosion) and better workspace, a combination of one or other of these methods would eventually have succeeded. But a man's gotta do... Again, thanks for your help, and I hope someone out there benefits from this ramble in the brambles. Feel free to add ideas if you’re able.
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Hello Gentlemen!
Thanks for the additional suggestions. I particularly appreciate your tip and encouraging words cackshifter (What a great name too!!
) and your understanding, Junglie - great idea with the Caustic soda!
On 12/31/2020 at 7:09 PM, cackshifter said:The warmer you dare get the aluminium, the better, as it expands more than steel. Ideally, hot aluminium, cold steel. So preheat a great idea. You might even try quenching the steel once you have welded onto it. And also try tapping the stud cold with a hammer if you can, not ridiculously hard, but you are trying to break the corrosion bonds. We are all willing you on.
Temperatures here have hovered around -5 C the past few days with spells of wettish snow and very hard freezing, so I am only just today (-3C but sunny and dry) able to start again on the task. Landroversforever requested some pics showing setup and location - so I'm attaching some here... taken , I add, a few days before the snow came. Both protruding studs were since sheared to surface level. Onwards...!!
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Pete and Bowie: see, these are tricks I've definitely missed. Pre-heating before welding and a non-weldable shield! Brilliant ideas! Of course they make sense. I will definitely do this! Many thanks again.
And happy Hogmanay when it comes gentlemen! 👌
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On 12/29/2020 at 10:41 PM, ballcock said:
If you have to drill it out can you clamp a plate over the bolt position with a starter hole to centralise your drilling? Would an arc welder be better for putting heat into the bolt rather that a mig?
5 hours ago, Troll Hunter said:A alternative to FF's suggestion is an ordinary drill bit, a left hand tap and matching die, all small enough diameter to not jeopardise the original thread. Once the stuck bolt is tapped, make a left hand bolt and thread it into the stuck bolt. Then use the method posted by Bowie69, above. The left hand bolt should be made long enough for you to make a reasonable electrical contact on it as well as get a spanner on it. The left hand threads allow you to attempt to undo the bolt without screwing the smaller bolt out of the stuck bolt. I know that left hand taps and dies are not cheap, but neither is a recovery to a commercial workshop.
Mike
These are really great straightforward ideas, lads, well worth trying. Thank you! On the heat front - the induction heater would be great to try, but currently out of my budget and waiting for it - or components suggested by Soutie and commented on by David - to arrive would be too much of a delay. I've really got to get a move on now. Ballcock: I'm not sure if an arc welder (I assume you mean using sticks) would make much difference; I haven't got one and I've seen many migs used with success on youtube (albeit welding downwards!).
Fridge Feezer: thanks for mentioning the left-hand drill bits. Yes, I've tried them, as described - however, similar to a point made by landroversforever about not welding aggressively enough, I suspect I chickened out too early after they just seemed to cut. I suspect I should let them carry on cutting for quite a bit longer to reduce the mass of the seized bolt(s) such that they might then break loose. I feel more hopeful now that some combination of the ideas suggested here MUST work.
It's absolutely brilliant to get this kind of advice from guys who have clearly wielded (not welded!) a spanner or two. I will try to post some kind of update to let people know how this tale of challenge and adventure ends! Thank You!
Chassis Data/Datums and Dimensions
in Defender Forum (1983 - 2016)
Posted
Thanks Stephen. Your thoughts genuinely appreciated. 🙂