[Where is the MSA Blue book?]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Dunno if this would be any help. These are the ALRC roll cage regs, we are MS UK (aka MSA) regulated, but as a general rule our roll cage regs are a bit tougher.

https://www.alrc.co.uk/stylesheets/downloads/Roll-cage-regulations.pdf

Thanks for that, much appreciated.

[Where is the MSA Blue book?]

4 minutes ago, Stellaghost said:

they are 8 spline

Hmmm, yeah, I was thinking that, the Sumb shafts are the perfect size, just the wrong spline count for being a handy source of short rear mog shafts.

[Where is the MSA Blue book?]

1 minute ago, Stellaghost said:

Pretty sure I've got a photocopied set I could copy and send to you if you don't get sorted regards Stephen

Thanks for that, I’m sure it exists electronically nowadays and it’s just my own ineptitude preventing me from finding it!!
Whilst I have you there, I didn’t want to mess your thread up with silly questions and comments but can you remind me please if your 404 half shafts are 8 or 10 spline? I’m thinking they’re 8 spline but I forget as I work on so many different things. The reason I was asking is that the Simca Sumb ones are an almost identical size but are 10 spline. 

[Where is the MSA Blue book?]

I need to start the cage on my forest rover buggy thing and although I won’t necessarily be entering it in MSA events I think it’s a good place to start in a feeble attempt at compliance..
I was looking for specific information on the cage material requirements but the only thing on the whole MSA site I could find was in reference to single seater racecars. Can someone please point me in the direction of said tomb of knowledge? I remember much of it was like the old ALRC green book but I was keen to see if there has been any updates in the last few years since I ever saw it.
Specifically for anyone remotely interested, I was looking at using a sleeved rear hoop with a 50.8mm tube inside a 60.3mm tube probably using S355 but I’m totaly open to suggestions. Regulations for truck trials might be more applicable if the MSA covers that too nowadays? I’m wondering if I would be allowed to plug weld it in particular. 
https://www.motorsportuk.org/resource-centre/ 
That’s the site I was looking at but can’t find anything. The last entry on this site about it was in 2018 and even going back years, there’s only references to it but no links.
Thanks for any input. 

[Thoughts and musings on the new defender]

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

The fact they don't have that, is because of a series of bad decisions on their part, not Land Rover's fault.

Did you miss the bit where they originally had 18" wheels and a rear locker? The fact that they no longer have that vehicle speaks volumes about how difficult these new defenders are to repair and the poor resources made available by JLR to do so, that is entirely Land Rover's fault and nothing at all to do with the consumer. Regardless of how capable (or not) the new defender is, there's no excuse for intentionally making it almost impossible to diagnose and repair. Tyre sidewall vulnerability clearly wasn't part of the design process as the low rounded kerb strikes in the test marketing videos alluded to. 

 

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

Good luck getting that through pedestrian safety testing.

Any schoolboy or first year graphic design student let alone an experienced engineering team at JLR could have designed something better than the woefully inadequate and potentially dangerous  recovery point provided. Look at literally every other 4x4 or medium duty vehicle in the world for inspiration.
What many people don't realise is that the front recovery point is actually underneath the car at the lowest point on the front of the subframe, not on the front of the car at all. Anybody in this area is completely hidden from the drivers view, you cant even hold a hand on the bonnet to indicate your presence as it's that far down. Being located on the very lowest point of a stuck vehicle also means that there is also a danger of a hand getting put between the recovery eye and the ground to tighten a shackle or feed something through the loop which if there is any movement of the vehicle at all during this time, from people getting in and out of it fro example, well intentioned pushes and rocking from helpers or driver input could well result in injury.
The original DC100 after which the new defender is modelled had very prominent recovery points at the front which are now just plastic recesses on the new defender but they could have chosen to do something clever with modern UHMwPE fibres with an attachment point out of harms way of NCAP punishment.
There's a lot of scope for improvement however as the two front longitudinal members would be stronger than anything on the old defender and well up to the task and also sit about a foot back from the front of the car to allow for an NCAP friendly design. Even a stout crossmember (or armature as JLR call them now, German translation maybe?) like the rear towbar or front winch mount could have recovery points integrated into them. 

I'm sure that the real reason it doesn't have proper recovery points at the front is because it didn't fit with the image that the designer wanted to portray, perhaps he saw them as a sign of weakness rather than practicality. It must have been very frustrating for some of the design team. It wasn't designed by a practical man so I don't suppose we should expect practical features.
Bear also in mind that the new Defender follows the same design strategy as the BMW designed L322 which has a similar layout of subframes on a monocoque, the new Defender's D7 platform was just an update of a BMW design which also had the low central recovery eye. I dare say by then that it was just the norm and the way things had 'always been' by then and didn't get a second thought.
The decision to hide it behind a plastic undertray beggars belief and the fact that they had to acknowledge this and make an optional aluminium one to allow access shows that it was an aesthetic rather than NCAP driven design feature to do so.

[Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier]

Probably the most informative video out there on the Grenadier:

 

 

[Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier]

56 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

I also wonder how relevant it is to anything but quite hardcore off roading ?  I can’t remember the last time I hit a trailing arm or dragged the chassis rail - and if I was somewhere remote I’d be actively avoiding situations that introduced that level of risk. So I wonder how much of a problem it really is? 

It’s definitely important, what some people in the UK (for example) think of as hard core off roading is a daily commute to others in less developed countries or areas exposed to more extreme weather, particularly in the rainy season or in deep wet winter snow where additional drag from unnecessarily low slung components could literally be the difference between life and death. OK, that’s maybe a bit dramatic but in snow or deep mud dragging or not dragging your control arm mounts and dampers will be the difference between success and failure of arriving at your destination as intended.

If you aren’t dragging your chassis rail on the ground now and again, you’re probably not in very difficult terrain or driving where there aren’t roads which is fine, especially if you’re on your own and driving responsibly by treading lightly.

[Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier]

1 hour ago, jeremy996 said:

For me the serviceability is probably most important - I'm not a mud monster. Is it likely I can service it on my drive, without a lift? Were there any hints about service and technical data? 

You can definitely service the mechanical things on your drive, it uses metalastic bushes which seem appropriately sized, propshafts have CV’s rather than UJ’s, steering components would be easy but you’ll probably need a bigger ball joint splitter, The engine uses a paper cartridge type filter and as long as you’re in the OECD you can probably service the gearbox too as it needs a special fluid made from unicorn blood or something. We actually discussed this at length and they weren’t discounting the idea to destructively test a gearbox by putting ATF in it. It could be down the track that they get ZF to modify the clutch and brake pack linings to accommodate it and potentially have another shift matrix or programme.  Hub bearings are conventional taper rollers without spacers on stubs instead of those stupid unit hubs so that’s another plus.  One of the guys there was part of the team building the EPC and workshop manuals, those might yet turn up in the touch screen. He definitely didn’t say no when asked about it. 

Some parts like airbags or brake components or any other safety related items require full traceability to avoid vehicle recalls so they can’t really put everything on Amazon so access to a parts and repair network is in the pipeline.

[Stage one saga.]

55 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Video isn't working for me?

 

41 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Nor me.

Oh nooo, apple got me, damn, imagine just expecting tech to work. I didn’t want to post a youtube link because of the bloody adverts but I put it on youtube too after I noticed that the thumbnail didn’t come up. I posted videos before from my iphone and they worked? What else I noticed, I was actually typing the post and the curser was hidden and now it works. Maybe there was a glitch in the matrix?

 

[Stage one saga.]

Opening pictures for the Grenadier post made me think it was time I uploaded a video of this thing. I think followers of this thread are quite used to getting abandoned. 

The main to-do list items are to get the air suspension on, the hydraulics and winches, ground anchors, get the brakes happy with 170 bar, finish the cooling and electrical and maybe after that look at seats, cage and welding it all together.

[Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier]

35 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

How far do you reckon they hang down Jamie? 

Umm, The actual link is much higher up than the lowest extremity of the bracket so in real life it doesn’t look as bad as it does in the pictures. It does all sit much lower than a defender but nothing’s as low as the springs on a 70 series for example.

 

[Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier]

57 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Plus why those silly trailing arm mounts that hang down beneath the chassis??

My take on that is to get the required amount of link separation on the axle so that the links and bushes have a decent service life then the chassis ends needed to be where they are to get the handling characteristics that they wanted. The lower links have bit of triangulation on them which puts the forwards end under the chassis instead of on the side like a defender.  It does look really low in the flesh too. I suppose I look at it with two hats on, from a fleet and serviceability perspective, the design is awesome, from a pure off roading perspective, it’s awful.

[Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier]

1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

Sounds great Jamie. 
 

One of the concerns on these pages was the bash plate coming down from the rear bumper to the axle ..  what’s under that? And does it look vulnerable to being hung up? 

Yes indeed, a concern shared by some wearing Grenadier shirts that day and myself included. 

There’s a silencer above it and the forwards facing leading edge of the ‘sand scoop’ as it’s been christened on social media would get caught in all but the mildest of terrains. I think they’re possibly teasing us with it. In a worst case scenario if it were to remain on production vehicles it would be very easy to remove and fix the exhaust routing properly. The leading edge is about level with the bottom of the axle tube at ride height and there is probably 50-60mm of bump travel to the hollow rubber springs (like a 70 series and some other vehicles use which act as progressive bump stops) Then maybe another 100mm after that on a hard bump so the sand scoop could well see itself ripped off, especially on undulating ruts and definitely on rocks and stumps. Thinking about it, it would be super easy to reverse over a stump or the wrong kind of mall kerb and get totally hung up on it when it goes between the scoop and the axle.

[Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier]

I was fortunate enough to be invited to Goodwood by a friend to go and get a look at the Grenadier. 
My first comments are not actually about the vehicle at all but about the team they had assembled to face the public. 

Clearly a lot of thought has gone into the selection process of the team members who were on the stand compared to the sales and marketing types who would usually fill the role. We spent literally hours talking with all of these guys and at no point did they ever lose interest in the subject. Amongst the mix was a military vehicle instructor, ex Camel trophy competitor / Land Rover support, Master tech, parts catalogue and workshop manual creator, accessory engineer, development engineer, some, I didn’t get their roles but who worked with Rolls Royce amongst others.  The driver who was a UK test driver with all the appropriate motorsport credentials on road had a Jeep JK as a personal vehicle and was going on an overland trip to Morrocco with it. The Jeep has a similar type of suspension layout and his description of how different the Grenadier was to drive was particularly enlightning. It was the absolute polar opposite to the new Defender launch I went to where nobody could describe where to put the towing eye or how to put the transfer case in neutral.

I was able to look at and discuss but not necessarily touch or share photographs of every aspect of the vehicle. This ‘window’ we’re getting the opportunity to look into the development of it is really interesting to me and they have definitely been listening to commentary from far and wide. A good example of this I was told was following a visit to a vehicle fleet (I coincidentally managed years ago) in Africa, they changed the hand brake to cable operation instead of the original electronic type that was planned.

Rather than me blab on for pages about my thoughts and musings, are there any particular things that people want to discuss ? I took about 80 pictures but was asked not to share any from underneath which is fair enough given that this was still a prototype vehicle and it was really there as part of the interior reveal.

On the Subject of the interior, I couldn’t care less if we were sitting on milk crates and using string to work the wipers so I probably won’t get drawn into too many conversations about the seat covering materials or the type of leather on the steering wheel but from a functionality perspective there are pages of potential discussion. My interior highlight is the amount of lashing points on basically every surface which was yet another source of annoyance with older Land Rovers. That being said, some weren’t as strong looking as the new defenders but there was a lot more of them. 

The picture was taken around closing time and this was probably the quietest that the stand was. It attracted more consistent interest and crowds than any other single car that I saw there so they must be doing something right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mog 404 axles]

How does the pinion shaft splines compare to the half shaft splines? What major and minor diameters are they? You need to make new short shafts to move the front diff over?

[Thoughts and musings on the new defender]

On 6/23/2021 at 9:55 AM, Chicken Drumstick said:

But then, a Discovery (or even a Range Rover) of any generation can also do this. I'm not sure it is these "things" that really define what the old Defender is or was. It is more the intangible stuff, the things the new one doesn't have.

I think a lot of people chose to ignore this comment so I thought I'd repeat it again here. The new defender is a Discovery 5S, prove me wrong......

[Thoughts and musings on the new defender]

2 hours ago, deep said:

I should add that I just sold a sub 60,000  mile Mercedes SLK.  A beautiful car in so many ways but anything electronic was a complete 'mare to deal with, followed closely by brittle plastics that aged terribly.  

True but no Mercedes ever, even over two centuries has even once needed a starter motor replaced at 55,000 miles.

[Thoughts and musings on the new defender]

2 hours ago, deep said:

This could make a pretty decent ambulance too.  It just opens up the Defender to quite a large part of that old market.  If only they weren't obsessed with space-wasting monocoques and offered a cab and chassis option!  Oh well, that boat sailed a long time ago.

I disagree, in an urban environment you'd be better with a van based ambulance and in an off road scenario then reliability is king, there's no way any agency could justify the support these would need and the price of them.  I'm not a fan of the very short travel suspension and the way it lurches around from one wheel to the next which would be very uncomfortable for patients in certain conditions. There's really not a lot of room in the back for setting it up as one either. I think if Toyota ever stopped making the 70 series then the Grenadier would be a more suitable vehicle as it's being designed from the outset to be modified and the basic layout is far more suited to durability in a harsh environment. 

[Thoughts and musings on the new defender]

6 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

Surely as they're not buried up to the door sills in a quarry mud hole or fitted with a cherry picker, they can’t possibly be ‘being used properly’?

Exactly!! 

[Thoughts and musings on the new defender]

2 hours ago, deep said:

 The bigger the number, the longer the car and that's good enough, isn't it?

Yes and no but that's not what I meant. I think they should have called the short one a 100, the medium one a 120 and yeah, the long one needs something else but something that gives them their own identity instead of sharing it with something unrelated from a different century. 

[Thoughts and musings on the new defender]

The 130 really shows how much Jerry screwed up the defender design in my opinion, by losing all the parallel lines and boxyness of the original, this looks more and more like a Nissan patrol or any generic SUV to me. There's not a single thing I can see in that 130 even as a homage or a nod to the old one which identifies it as a Land Rover.
I also think they should have been named after their wheelbase instead of some feeble acknowledgement to a past that doesn't exist and give them an identity of their own to build on as they develop and mature and possibly carve out their own niche. I do wonder what the wheelbase of the 130 is, it would be ironic if it was actually 130".
Without the pseudo camouflage to make it stand out I doubt it would have attracted a second glance by anyone other than the invited press.

 

[Mog 404 axles]

3 hours ago, Timc20xe said:

what a great build this is . if you ever start offering the diff shortening as a service I would definitely be interested.  

I've 2 mog axle builds on the go . and have done a sumb axle build before 

We need pictures of these builds, lots of pictures!! Start a new topic and put them in this modified forum please.
I have a sumb axle build ongoing and always looking for inspiration.

[Mog 404 axles]

11 minutes ago, Stellaghost said:

Thanks

absolutely no idea with the slip splines

one thing I have discovered is that the mog pinion is very hard HSS cutters will not even scratch it and the tipped cutter I'm using was the only one I could find that was narrow enough to do the job so I would probably have difficulties sourcing a smaller tipped cutter also the one I'm using is 11/4" bore and bench top mill table is 1" so I had to make a holding bush for it, the joys, I guess no build is straightforward but I seem to be spending about as  much time making jigs and rigs as I am actually working on axle mods but it will be worth it in the end regards Stephen

I feel your pain, my feeble attempts at cutting splines in the past have always involved abrasive discs and diamond wheels to shape the discs for the last few passes to size. I'm rough enough not to hesitate to put a grinder in the tool post that would have a real machinist horrified.

[Mog 404 axles]

That's looking fantastic, it's a bit late now but would the diameter of that pinion shaft lend itself to having the 16 splines of a propshaft slip yoke cut into it? I ask as a Discovery or range rover solid front prop has a very convenient yoke that could be used potentially adding an inch or two to propshaft length in builds where the prop length is marginal.

[Mog 404 axles]

It's awesome to see the relentless progress on this. The broken mill gears would be a major setback for many that hardly even slowed you down, great stuff!!
I don't know if the gently gently approach is the best way forwards to welding that diff head? I would likely do the weld prep, clamp it with a big bolt through the pinion hole, get both halves red hot and fire up the welder whilst it's all still hot by tacking it with numerous small tacks then give it death for the root run so you're welding right through the tacks and pein it afterwards with a blunt chisel and weld, pein, cap and pein again whilst it's all still hot. let it cool and see what shape it is in the morning.