The Hatt
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let off a CO2 fire extingusher on your hand and you'll feel the effects
See this is living up to the friendly forum tag that come up on Google….
I would suggest doing a little more research before you take the plunge - wizzards of Nos are ok but not the font of all knowledge you might want to research "NOS" (try looking for Nitrous Oxide Systems - true daddies of laughing gas)Well from what I can tell the WON systems massively out perform NOS systems in reliability and performance. Plus NOS may be the “Daddies” but that doesn’t mean they are now with the times.
and spend some time looking at tractor pulls.eh? Not building a tractor pulling machine. Just looking to improve performance of my ROAD going Disco without spending too much.
Personally I'd suggest a cummins 5.9 as being a cheaper option...I really love the Cummins and would buy a Dodge Ram 2500 just for that engine. But I seriously can’t see buying & importanting an engine which weighs about 900lb and is probably too big for the engine bay is going to be cheaper than fitting a £600 WON kit….. :confused:
But if you can get a Cummins for this money PLEASE PLEASE Pm me.
having said that dropping a shot on a diesel is a pretty straightforward proposal, technically its easier and safer than dropping it on a petrol motor, an easy way to get round the whole fuel enrichment and EGT issue would be to run a twin tank setup and drop propane in with the blue. Its the most folorn hope of a project Ive seen which makes it applaudable and truly worth doing
you're not going to find a transmission with a green oval on it thats not going to auto-dismantle the first time you hit it though
I think the tranny will be an issue, but as stated I’m going to start on smaller shots first.
Plus if I replace tranny now it will cost. If I replace it once its broken it will still cost the same. So it’s not priority No. 1 at the moment.
Thanks for your help though, you have provided some useful info
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as far as i understand it the problem you will encounter even with nitrous is that the injector flow rate is fixed by the pumps injection pressure
if you try and inject twice as much fuel, it takes twice as long for the injection event to end.
The result of this is that even if you can get enough air in to burn the fuel, the combustion process will still be occurring way after when it should have finsihed, resulting in effectively still burning fuel being chucked into the exhaust manifold. This will quickly cause the EGT's to skyrocket and the pistons, valves and turbine will quickly expire.
VAG engines are tunable yes, but not on the stadnard injectors, the 110hp vag engine will see about 130-140hp on the stock injecotrs before they will simply stop being effective. Larger injectors simply arent available for the LR TDi.
Thanks.
One approach that may work, is to leave the derv pump alone, and use a propane/nitrous injection mix to gain the extra power. You will be able to get more power than with nitrous alone on the derv pump, and the combustion will complete properly, but you'll have to carefully watch the EGT's and i still think that even 250hp is probably out of reachI've looked into this myself, and came to the conclusion that it basically needs a different engine.
the TD5 is good for about 200hp before the stock injectors are at max flow add some propane and you might get 250.
BMW M57TU2 is a 3L I6 with Twin turbochargers, and produces 280hp in stock trim, would likely be a bit of a nightmare to get running though, there are off the shelf landrover bellhousings available though as south africa got M52 powered defenders.
I've come to the conclusion that the best approach is a petrol LPG conversion and a V8
Not a rover V8 though, because i do agree they are **** engines.
I would look to either the 4.2L 32/40v Audi V8, the 4.0/4.4L 32v BMW V8 or the 4.0 Lexus V8
They are all alloy designs and all produce ~280hp in standard trim, the audi unit seems to be the best value, ive seen them available for 600quid on ebay numerous times.
A rover V8 will do 15ish mpg on gas, a standard or mildly tuned TDi will do 30mpg
One of those modern multi valve v8's is going to be better than the old rover engine on fuel, and add the fact that gas is ~50p a litre and diesel is approaching £1.20 a litre the V8 seems the better option
thanks for the info.
I agree about the engines, although my choice would be a Chevy LS1. 350hp/370lb ft stock. Small and lightweight, produces 90% of its torque from 1500rpm yet doesn’t mind to rev.
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Not its not average..... and neither will yours be when you start prodiucing the power !.................... if I use the power then 12 mpg is more realistic........
Well ok.
As it currently sits I see a fairly decent 24+mpg overall average of all the driving conditions I encounter.
I agree while running the nitrous I will expend more fuel but this will only be at times when the system is armed and activated at WOT. All other times it won’t affect mpg. I hope lol
It was never meant to be 300bhp............... not difficult to do, but 3.9's with that sort of power are difficult to live with...............But that was my point, well partly.
300 ponies from a 4.6 would be a better option, but I defy you to tell the difference between 284 and 300 bhp...............however, its not power that counts......... torque is what we want and we want it exactly in the right place on the rev band....................Exactly, I guess I may have been optimistic about HP levels on the tdi, but it does make a lot of torque even in stock trim. If Allisports figures are to be believed my tdi is making over 250lb ft @ under 1800rpm. A 300bhp (or 280bhp) 4.6 won’t be doing that at that rpm level. And I’m hoping that nitrous will see well over 300 lb ft at these low rpms.
Yes.............. 30%+ is the norm for and antiquated LR drive system.............. using different oils and making sure the wheel bearing, brakes and tyres aee all perfect can help................................what did you think the loses would be ?Well I don’t know exactly and I admit if you had 35” tyres on for the dyno run they wouldn’t have helped but it seems far far more drivetrain loss than similar Jeeps and Ford Bronco’s seem to lose on the rollers.
Scoobies always reckon to lose a third.................... and plenty of those have had a lot of roller time.........................This is an area I’ve done a lot of reading and research on and talked to many people across the world about it. And the conclusion is that if you are losing that much then something is wrong.
I admit dyno type (inertia or eddy current) and correction factors (SAE, STD) will affect readings but never seen proof of this level of loss. In fact having spoken to a lot of Evo/Scooby owners State side I think they struggle to realistically claim 20-22% drivetrain loss with more like 18% working out nearer the mark using various calculations.
But hay it’s a big topic and one where there are always a million opinions….
Check the regulations about storing gases and liquids (and local bylaws).................... the word bulk is defined in those by quantity and some are very low indeed................Better go check the strimmer 2 stroke mix……. lol
EGT's are controlled on tuned diesel by monitoring, but more importantly that are very much part of the engine map setup .............. NOS will produce large EGT spikes ...i.e lot of power over a very, very, short time period........... I don't know how the engine will react to these spikes and I dont know if a standart thermocouple will capture them to the gauge...........Think I’ll just have to try a suck it and see approach. I’m not going to barrel in with a 150 shot but start off with a 25 and take it from there.
Are you convinced that the LR drive train will handle the extra torque ?Nope!
what gearbox are you going to use ? what are the plans for the axles ?Well my current Disco (the modded 200tdi) has a LT77 which I know won’t hack it.
I do have a 300tdi auto waiting in the winds though. And while not the ultimate solution I know of guys in Aus and the US putting decent amounts of power/torque thru them.
The other factor is while off roading in difficult situations the nitrous won’t be used so the extra torque will not be there to brake more stuff like that. It would only be at WOT so a very hill climbs, mudding but mostly just highway work.
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I am also a member of the same forum ...................not knocking it, but not many on there have definitive dyno figures............but then again, some have some pretty impressive 1/4 mile run times.............
Building a engine is one thing ......................... building a race engine is something very different, and its not expense that I am talking about here.
I have been known to get 20+ mpg from my 2T defender truck cab running 35 in tyres..............Well that’s impressive but I do somewhat struggle to believe that’s an average mpg. Between myself, my brother and my father we have owned about 8+ different Rover V8 vehicles (various vehicles) and none have come close to that kind of mpg figure in a vehicle of that sort of weight. I’ve got a V8 TR7 which will in all honesty return 22-24mpg but it weighs less than 1200kg, is 2wd and fairly aerodynamic.
But hay if you say you get 20mpg thumbs up
the 3.9 V8 develops about 320ftlbs and 240bhp......... yes, it has plenty of low down torque with the max being delivered at 2800 rpm............. but fairly flat from 2500 to 3000 rpm........This is the dyno graph, measured at the wheels
Nice figures but still no 300bhp.
240 / 3.9 is only 62bhp per litre. Working on the same specific output a 4.6 would only be producing a tad over 280bhp.
But it still sounds like an awesome engine.
I can’t quite get my head around the numbers though, the dyno graph only shows a PEAK of 165hp, yes I know its whp. But unless my maths it totally pe-tong that means you are loosing 30%+ of your engine power via the drivetrain. It seems a little steep based on my previous research in this area.
Please correct me if I missed something out…
I seriously doubt whether you will get insurance and local authority planning for bulk storage.............Not sure why I’d need either insurance or local authority planning to hold a moderate amount of nitrous oxide. I’m not talking articulated tanker, lol
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so you know lots about nos but seem unfamiliar about the crown temperature effects of running it...?
Nope never claimed to know a lot or anything about nitrous, just that its proven. At least haven't meant to claim anything but that.....
Help is needed please
Could you add a little light to these crown temperature effects please.
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The RV8 is old, but its is not hugely expensive to extract a reliable 300bhp from a 4.6 ..................... or 260ish from a 3.9
I guess that is should also be noted that a good tuned V8 will give 300 ponies all day long and considerably more if shot with gas.............
I’d be REALLY interested in knowing how to attain this sort of power all day long from these V8’s. I’ve spent years with the RV8 and have a fairly highly modified one but it wasn’t cheap or easy. And doesn’t make low end grunt like a turbo diesel.
I’m not knocking at all, I’m honestly very interested in this. I’m also a member of the v8owners.org forum and making this kind of n/a power from an Rv8 on this kind of budget is as far as I know unheard of.
the diesel power you are aiming for will only be available in short bursts and you will be surprised how quickly you can empty a NOS cylinder.................I’m not wanting this to turn into a how good an idea is nitrous thread. Ta.
Yes, NOS is proven ................... but not proven with the LR dieselsYep, that’s why I’m trying to do a little research on the weaknesses in the tdi units.
Folks on here have had problems with melted pistons, broken elastic bands, broken rockers, broken tappet slides, blown turbos, cracked exhaust manifold, etc etc and this is on standard or just very mildly tuned engines (slight boost & fueling increase)..............This is all good info, do you have any specifics examples you could point me at. I’m interested I the exact nature of the failure and where possible the cause.
I’m also experienced in modified tdi’s, I’m on my 3rd and I have several friends running modified ones.
Where are you going to get decent parts for these engines ............... who manufactures decent forged pistons, off the shelf rods, etc ? I know that Julian (Lara) when he built his 2.8, had these items (and the crank) specially manufactured ............. that engine is giving a known reliable 285bhp (Julian also has his own dyno).......Well this depends largely on where the weaknesses lie. I’m not out to make the most HP ever. Just more HP at reasonable cost with the engines I already have and while retaining a simple electronic free setup and diesel levels of mpg.
I guess John has already pointed out many of the limitations ................. but another question is .............. how are you going to control the EGT when applying the NOS shot ................. the 200 & 300's are very susceptible to high EGT's.........Unknown.
But by monitoring them with a gage and sensor and running a larger diameter exhaust off the down pipe and see how I get on.
I guess the question is how do other people control EGT’s on tuned diesels?
These engines are a better choice....... their design is totally different to that of a LR tractor engine. The VW in particular is an extremely strong design that is race proven......................But I don’t have one of those engines.
If money was not an issue then obvious choices string to mind of the 2.4 DOHC in the new Defender, the 2.7 V6 in the D3/Jag S-Type, the RR 3.6 V8 or one of the American diesels, Ford V8 or Cummins 5.9
TBH my view is that you will raining against the wind , as the base engine is not that capable........................Ian
Thanks.
For less than £1470, I could get well in excess of 300 ponies from a RV8 using the pro shot fogger (DPI) direct port injection (£600 + £200 for the bottle and valves)
................even using a cheater plate on a 4 barrel will give you an extra 200 pony kick in the pants.............Maybe but I’ll never use anything but a WON (Wizards of Nos) nitrous setup for reasons which become obvious after a little research
Not knocking other systems but the research is quite compelling.Also I’d like to see an RV8 do 24+mpg in a 2 ton Disco running 34” tyres.
Another issue................... the price of NOS has risen very steeply over the last few years and can become quite cost prohibitive as the enjoyment factor increases ........................a 15lb bottle runs out real quick.............. the more common 10lb bottle runs out even quicker................ I guess it might be economic if you are a dentist or you work for the NHS 
Ian
Thanks for this I’ll bear it in mind. As you seem to know your stuff how does £4/lb of nitrous sound? I’ve been quoted this for refills and somewhere in the £3/lb if I have a large storage tank at home and buy in bulk.
Thanks again.
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Have look at some oneline venders. Most aftermarket steering wheels can be purchased with the correct boss. I believe John Craddock sell some nice 14 & 13" steering wheels. Only leather look but then they aren't pricey either. I have one of the 14" ones and can't complain. If you want real leather you'll pay more.
But you don't have to restrict yourself to just Land Rover specialists, Demon Tweaks and others sell steering wheels or maybe check Ebay. Personally I quite like some of the OMP alcantara steering wheels.
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A BIG thanks to everyone who has posted so far. Its all helping.
Keep it com'in
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I have no interest in nitro - not practical for what I do.
First off thanks for your reply, and my comments are not meant as how someone else put it "condocending" so I apologies in advance as they are just comments.
I intend to use nitrous not nitro (as in nitromethane that top fuel dragsters run on).
And as a side question, is there any reason you have no interest in nitrous? Just curious about the why behind the decision.
I believe I could get 200 HP from a 300Tdi without nitro. I don't have any experience with the 200Tdi.As far as I know the engines are pretty similar, and there is a chance that I may have a 300tdi to use.
The Cummins 3.9 litre, 4BT owners are getting much more power with the Bosch VE pump (like the 300Tdi). Cummins owners have done a lot more with the VE pump than any Land Rover owner I know of. For example they get good gains from changing the governor spring (but this may be because the stock 4BT is so low revving).And others are getting around 200HP from the VW Tdi with VE pump. But their vehicles are much lighter than our Land Rovers and they don't go off road, so low down torque requirements are different. They also do more to their VE pumps, like fitting a larger piston.
Thanks
So it is possible to get enough fuel from the VE pump to make in excess of 200HP, given enough air. With a suitable turbo and intercooler it should be possible to get enough air. The main problem is finding a turbo with a compressor that is reasonably efficient at the required pressure ratio - those I know of are too large and would have problems with surge, so compounds would be the go (probably use a VNT as the small turbo.Intent is to use stock turbo, nitrous will be injected as a dry kit direct into the intake manifold. So the turbo and intercooler themselves should, as I understand it have minimal affect. There will be increased cylinder pressure though.
My biggest concern with extracting 200HP from the 300Tdi is head gasket failure. I understand there are full metal gaskets available now, and with a set of ARP head studs, the gasket may live with the needed boost pressure between 30 and 40 psi. If not then O-rings would be required.Do you know where I could get these gaskets from? Thanks.
I would also balance the engine and replace the main bearing cap bolts with ARP studs.Trying to keep cost down. The engine was only £470 and the nitrous will be under a grand so sadly don't have funds to do a full and expensive rebuild on it.
Then we get into driveline issues, but that is off topic.umm yes
Currently in my thoughts too. It depends which route I go. I know that in reality the LT77 or LT77s stand no chance with these torque levels, so that rules out the LT85 and the R380 too. However if I opt for a progressive controller I should be able to minimise the shock load to the driveline. If I opt to use the 300tdi instead then thats got an auto on it so should be ok for a bit. As for the rest of the driveline think I'll look at replacing bits with HD units as and when they break.
Thanks for your help.
BTW - do you have links for the US websites modding the little Cummins? Ta
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And if you are going to use gas, why not lpg?
I read somewhere about using lpg as a power booster in diesel LR's
In fact it was on this forum....
Found the link
yeah I've got a Lr mag somewhere with a LPG article in.
Think its more that nitrous is easy to setup, can be bought as a kit for the purpose and produce more hp. On another forum someone has lpg on their VW which they are removing as it doesn't give as much gain as hoped. Think they said about 12bhp on the dyno where nitrous was offering up over 70hp
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to be honest, I thought his attitude was a bit condecending, particulary as he's new on here...
sorry not meant to be. if it helps point out the bits you don't like and I'll edit them
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I can't comment on how robust a 200/300 Tdi would be when making big HP. However, one of the limiting factors will be the Bosch VE injection pump. Bosch rate this as up to 25kW (33.5bhp) per cylinder, which equates to ~134bhp. The 150bhp figures from the likes of Allisport, etc are probably the realistic upper limit for the VE pump.
An alternative might be the VR pump (with appropriate injectors) which is rated to 50kW per cylinder (~270bhp), so should give you a good starting point. You'll need some form of electronic control for the solenoid valve, but that should be tractable these days.
Thanks that's some really useful info. I know of a device that can replace the smoke screw on the pump and is actuated when the nitrous is in use to add extra fuel.
Do you know, these ratings from Bosch are they what they expect the pump to be used for in stock trim. Does tweaking the pump alter these figures?
Thanks again
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I agree nitrous is only good while the bottle is full.
But it won't be active all the time or even armed. A lot of time it'd be switched off and when armed only kick in at WOT and with the use of a progressive controller it should be fairly efficient.
Plus other tuning methods only generally offer the goods at set rpm or throttle conditions so its not all that different.
The idea is more for road use than off road, although I guess in certain off road situations a tad more HP wouldn't go amiss
Thanks for your help.
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I think that you'd struggle to achieve 200bhp, and anything above that would be seriously unreliable, and cost you a fortune to do
Thanks for replying
When you say seriously unreliable, do you have experience of this or know someone who has had failed pistons at lower hp levels?
it would also be burning more fuel than a V8...nope - will explain...
200bhp is achievable from a td5, but that is getting towards its limits.As my understanding goes people get this level of power with just exhaust, intake, intercooler and tuning and still remain emissions legal without a cat. I've not know of this actually pushing the engine to it's limits, just a limit most consider after having spent a few grand.
BUT, if I'm wrong and you know of actual engine failures at this level please please post some more info.
if you want 300bhp out of a landrover, the most cost effective way is to fit it with a V8.lol
:lol: :lol: I take it you've never tried tuning a Rover V8 then, no offence meant but the Rover V8 is old, inefficient and horrendously expensive to modify not too mention likes far too much of a drink.
Please note, if you disagree, don't like or have no experience with this tuning method please don't bash. There is a lot of information available and I'll be happy to supply what info I can.
Ok currently the vehicle is running a modified exhaust, tweaked injector pump, full width intercooler and upped boost (it's a 200tdi). So pretty regular tuning stuff. The engine is 100% stock otherwise.
Allisport claim a 35% increase in performance. Well I don't have figures but it certainly runs better and a simple calculation gives me (111bhp + 35% and 195lb ft + 35%) ~150bhp/263lb ft +-
Now for the interesting bit - well its called nitrous oxide
:blink: Yes I know many claim it blows up engines and shouldn't be used. But those self same people also used to claim superchargers and turbo's do the same. But history has proven them to be reliable.
Nitrous has been a proven technology for over 30 years.
My intent is fuelling permitted to attempt to run a 100 shot or greater, but while turbo diesels are usually built tougher due to their design requirements (18:1 CR, etc.) I don't know what limits a Landy tdi has.
In the nitrous world there are several guys running 1.9 turbo diesels and making great reliable power. The Vauxhall unit has proven successful with its newer common rail design and has reliably produced 250bhp/380lb ft from a 1.9!!!!
The VW direct injection 1.9 has also proven capable of in excess of 230bhp with ease. With the larger displacement of the tdi and ease of being able to tune the Bosch injector pump I hoping more will be attainable.
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In need of some tdi experts/guru’s.
I’m trying to find out where the weak links are in the 200 and 300tdi engines in terms of making big power or rather how strong are the stock internals.
So my question is how much power can these engines take before you can expect failure, be it a crack piston, piston rings, bent con rod, cracking the head, etc.
Anyone know of anyone running BIG Hp on these motors? Maybe like 230-300bhp and 400-450lb ft?
................even using a cheater plate on a 4 barrel will give you an extra 200 pony kick in the pants.............
In need of some tdi experts/guru’s
in International Forum
Posted
Thanks for your comments, but in all honesty my decision to run nitrous is made and this post was not if it’s a good idea or not but askig about the limitations and weak areas of tdi motors.
Eh?
Adding nitrous to petrol engines is safe and easy, yet for some reason its still the vast minority that do.
Fitting a rear mount turbo setup isn’t that hard either, but still don’t see everyone doing it, does that mean its not such a good idea either?
Have you tried looking for a 4.2 or 4.6 RV8 recently? I know there is always someone who knows someone, but when I’ve looked (online, Ebay and local breakers) they have going for stupid money if you can find them.
Don’t get me wrong I love the ol’ Rover V8. But I also accept its vast limitations and cost. They may be smooth but they simply in n/a form don’t deliver torque like a TD. And then there is still the mpg issue. While 24mpg may be an average for my tdi Disco on a run at sensible speeds over 30mpg is more realistic. No Rover V8’d Landy will get close to those figures. The only other option is to LPG it, but if you want someone to fit it with a certificate that’s another £2000+.
Also the TDI I’m talking about will drive like a mildly tuned one 85% of the time. And only develop more HP/torque when the nitrous is activated for when the extra grunt is required. It won’t be revving any higher it won’t be ragged.
So are you telling me that all the other LR owners on this forum who put their foot down from time to time are sad losers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Firstly – NO!
Secondly, it would still be fun to have a 2 ton off road orientated Landy to have a enough grunt to upset the majority of ricers and chavs and anyone else. But that’s just motoring really.
Thirdly already have two fast cars.
BUT I don’t have a V8 Land Rover and have no intent in buying one!!!!
And a tweaked tdi actually runs pretty good. When I got my 200tdi Allisported my brother had a stock 3.9 Vogue Range Rover Classic. Fair do it was an auto and was running on stock road biased rubber. My Disco is a 3 door with a LT77 5 speeder and at the time had 31.10.50R15 BFG A/T’s on it.
According to the butt meter (seat of your pants driving) the tdi felt a lot more lively and faster. So much so that my brother actually wouldn’t race me with his 3.9 V8. In all honesty I think if you pulled out on a straight bit of road and went from 5mph to 95mph then the tdi would have had the legs up until around 65-70mph and then the V8 would have been more on song and would have gotten to 90/95mph quicker.
Another case in point is last year touring Wales, my uncle has a TD5 Disco II, ok its stock but it statistically produces more power than a tdi. In the hills I could generally hold a gear higher that him and on the straights pull away faster. The tdi was out muscling the TD5.
But I’d still be getting 24+mpg every day and 30mpg on the motorway.
That sounds like some good figures, but I suspect if you keep your foot in it 12-15mpg will be more the norm. That was certainly the case for the white V8 factory 90 we had.
OFF TOPIC
Got any pics of the 109 you can direct me at, sounds like one cool motor
I love the LS series of motors, have one sitting outside in my Camaro.
And yes I’ve looked at putting one in a LR. But I’d only do it to a Defender as I think part of the reason of doing would be lost if I used a Disco.
But this route would likely cost between 5 and 10 times what I’m looking at spending on my tdi.
BTW – DoD is that delivery on demand (or power on demand) because LS1’s don’t have that nor most of the LS2’s. I think some of the LQ iron blocked ones do. Could be wrong though.
Lol, but this still ain’t cheap and won’t produce the low end grunt which is my main goal.
Yeah, but come on seriously how much is it going to cost to buy the engine, buy the gearbox, modifiy the chassis, fit the darn thing, buy some form of ECU setup and fit it. Then there’s fuel/fuel tank and exhaust, cooling, transfer box and drive train.
As an idea they all sound good. But could you seriously recommend to someone that this is a viable option on a budget under £1000?
Lets assume that I only ever up to a 50 shot of nitrous and only get a PEAK increase in HP of 38bhp, although would probably see a lot more torque increase. That would still make it more powerful than a stock 4.0 RV8, with most likely more torque than a stock 4.6 V8 and probably faster than either because nitrous would offer the extra power/torque fairly evenly across the entire rpm band, thus producing more power more of the time.
No it won’t be the fastest
No it won’t be the ultimate
No its not trying to take anything from anyone or any V8
Bit it will be fun
Faster
More powerful
Cheap to buy
Retain stock driveability
Retain mid 24+mpg
I really can’t see the problem. Its not as if I’m popping over to someone elses house at night and tampering with their tdi engines to see if the blow up instead of leaving a new shiny crate V8 on their driveway.
It’s my vehicle. All I wanted was some info about the engine. But thanks anyway.