The Hatt

thanks. I know CPC used to sell extended ones for about £65, are the 1 ton ones the same or are they shorter? Ta.

Who sells extended spring shackles for the Series motors?

Something small, ARC compliant, fiarly unique and capable. Budget upto £7k in parts & labour but if less then all the better (just to clarify the nitrous tdi project is not related to this or this budget). But to achieve this it may have to go thru several versions and a couple of years which I accept. Example, if I go the hybrid route I may chop the chassis first and run on the stock engine. Or I might do an engine transplant first and do the chop later. And while a 90 is an obvious choice there is something that appeals about running a coil sprung 88 with modern suspension, brakes, running gear and engine.

Well I can't see the harm in asking, its not hurting no one. And to be 100% fair I never ever asked for advice on nitrous but how strong where the tdi lumps. Maybe I should have been more concise with what I was after or maybe not bothered asking at all (but I can hardly change that now). Also see my post I made after yours explaining a lot of my reasoning of what I was/am doing. Not too mention in my other thread I was bombarded with claims that an engine swaps (even citing the BMW V8) to be cheap and easy. So I've taken that advice and asked a question. If that's so wrong then help me buddy.

I agree there are a ton of better gearboxes. But as I want to stay ARC compliant it means a big no no. And you could be right about the Defender, but hay I've already got a Series.

Yes its a pain. I'm hoping to use a fully retained suspension setup with some of X-Eng's new trailing arms as this should be within the rules. Can run upto a 33" tyre which is still big enough to break stuff with, so will be happy at that. )

Yep I've considered this as well. But to be honest if I did this I'd want to swap the axles over for a wider track and better brakes and add power steering. Think overall it wouldn't be any cheaper or easier to stick with the leaf suspension. :unsure:

Thanks for your very knowledgeable reply. I guess it does appear a little disjointed. And for many reasons, most I don't really want to discuss on a public forum. The TDI nitrous thing is somewhat separate idea to the other threads. The Disco is my main 4x4 but not a DD. I want to keep it usable without spending too many £££'s on it, but at the same time I'd like to make it a tad different. I don't really want to blow the motor in it, but as the engine only cost me £470 well over 2 years back then I really can't complain if it goes pop by adding the nitrous. To further this the Disco is currently the only vehicle I have with 4 proper seats so I'm inclined to keep it this way. It is however the vehicle I use to compete in Land Rover Trials with, although I know its not ideal. In addition to this last year I bought a diesel Series 3 88 with the intent of prepping it for trialling. Sadly although I bought it as a supposed runner, the engine is seized. I did consider chopping my Disco down and making an 88 hybrid out of the two but as stated above I'd like to keep the Disco as a 4 seater. So I've been pondering what to do with the 88. Then recently I've been offered a 300tdi Disco auto. Now as I already have one Disco I probably won't be keeping this, at least not as a regular Disco. So the choices are chop it down instead and use the Series 3 body. But I'm also interested in doing something more exciting with the engine, hence the TD5 and BMW V8 threads. I could decide to say sod it to the Series 3 for now and just look at an engine swap in this Disco and then maybe sell the other one. I really don't know. As for not having anywhere to work, well its true. Since I moved house I no longer have a driveway or a workshop. But I'm hoping to sort out a driveway sometime this summer. I do have access to other locations but they are not suitable at present. As unfortunately I have a TR7 V8 parked up at one place which would be suitable. But the TR7 needs a new axle on it, which I just haven't had time or interest in recently. Then there's what do I do about the Series 3. It's in a field that belongs to a family member, but depending on what time of the year I could probably use one of the barns for a short period of time, but not during harvest as they will be used. So yes it is disjointed but that's because I have too many vehicles, too much imagination at what I'd like to do to them and in reality not enough time or money to complete most of them. So I probably end up talking more than doing. As it stands this is what I have at present: -Chevy Camaro z/28 -Triumph TR7 V8 (in need of new axle) -Peugeot 106 diesel (my current DD) -Discovery 200Tdi (intent to add nitrous too, but also needs a front diff) -Series 3 88 (in a field somewhere and need of a new engine) -Discovery 300tdi auto (not with me yet but due to pick it up any time soon) I have considered chopping in most of them and buying a TD5 90. But for reasons of my own I've decided against this route at present. Also combining the fact that fairly recently I have managed to reduce my daily commute from 120 miles to just 46 miles I'm keen to look at alternatives. Current thinking is this: -Keep Camaro because its fast/fun and holds its money well (for weekend use mostly) -Sell Peugeot -Sell TR7 -Buy a Ford Puma and run on LPG as a new daily driver -Fix 200Tdi Discovery and add mitrous -Sort out what to do with 88 and 300TDI Disco Aim is to: -Keep a fast tidy car (Camaro) -Affordable daily driver (Puma) -Larger family sized off roader able to be used on holidays or when 4 seats are needed (200tdi Disco) -Something a little bit different in terms of an off roader that could be used for competition (maybe a Series 3 88 pick up with coil suspension, BMW V8 or modern diesel, trick suspension and big tyres, oh and must be ARC legal as I like sticking to ARC events) Convoluted - yes. But hay its just me

could have fooled me

So discussion and questions are forbidden on this website then? And who said I intend to build all or any of these. Or are you just out to rubbish and insult? But hay thanks a million

I agree generally long stroke motors are more torquey. But hp is still calculated from torque in exactly the same way so it doesn't matter about the engine configuration. Also evidence on long stroke motors making more torque is a little bit of a grey area. One of the hot rod mags in America built to engines as identically as they good but one with a longer stroke than the other but same displacement. Both made very similar torque curves however the shorter stroke motor made slightly higher HP due to being happier at higher rpm levels.

Yeah I thought it would be different. You see I have my 200Tdi Discovery and I've got an old 88 Series 3. But the 88's motor is no more so need to think of what to do. I've also got a 300tdi auto Disco in the pipe line. Ideally I'd like to make something good for trialling utilising what I've got and without breaking the bank. So possibly converting the 88 to coils using one of the Disco's. But thought maybe a different engine would be more interesting. Lot and lots of possibilities... shame about the lack of money though...... lol

Yeah I know, but I've found it hard to find anything more than people saying about other people. Google doesn't exactly return a spreadsheet of conclusive results. So I tried this thread, which to be fair has seen quite a bit of interest but in all honesty hasn't actually provided any examples just claims that people have heard of.... So I started this thread: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=26003 But if you read it the reports of failures don't tally up with the claims in this thread So what should I believe? Peoples opinions without anything to back them up or a more statistical analysis based on what data I can find. I do agree to an extent, not too sure how revvy a VW diesel is though, think they have PEAK HP at 4000rpm same as a tdi. Also the whole aim of a power adder is to make big power without starting with a blank piece of paper. I agree if you are going for absolute maximum power or efficiency, but slapping a power adder (turbo, blower, nitrous) on to any engine will see an increase in power to some extent. Usually getting to greedy with that power is where most problems lie. Cool like the little Mini's, my cousin recently sold his 1275 GT Clubman. But that aside, the tuning method I'm trying is deliberately not going down the route of expensive n/a style modification. I found out about the WON system by browsing a Ford Puma forum. There a user seemed to suffer very similar comments to these received here - as nitrous only breaks stuff and there are better ways. However they added a 50 shot and progressive controller and the car apparently runs very well producing over 200hp from a 1.7. The n/a option would have cost in the region of 3 times as much to achieve the same PEAK Hp but with lower torque and lower power across the rpm band. I would NEVER say nitrous is the only route or that other tuning methods are a waste, because I simply don't believe it. I do believe there is a lot of miss-understanding about nitrous. Probably because of a lack of understanding and because there are some very carp setups out there which do cause a lot of problems. Yes I'm a noob to nitrous, but not to tuning or performance cars/engines. And I believe for some £600 quid I can get a tdi to outperform most Rover V8's. Sure you could slap nitrous to a Rover V8 and walk all over the tdi, but then I don't have a Rover V8 in a Land Rover and I'd still be facing what would be for me unrealistic mpg figures. Honestly I have no idea. But based on the fact that others claim 200hp without nitrous is possible from a tdi then yes I'd have say I think they are capable. Also forgetting that nitrous is not as concerned with such things when making power. The heads/combustion chamber on a Rover V8 are pretty poor design compared to modern engines. But with the correct application they are fully capable of making power. I am happy to admit that I have no idea what criteria LR used when designing the tdi. Yes it probably wasn't for Formula 1 racing but its a bit of bold statement to claim what you are claiming. The tdi had a massive hike in HP & torque over it's predecessor. And in performance terms was successful in causing the 3.5 V8 to be taken out of production for the Defender. As for HP and torque, well they are interlinked. HP is in essence a representation or torque at speed, or work done if you prefer. HP = torque x rpm / 5252 Torque = HP x 5252 / rpms The more torque you make the more hp. The more torque you make at higher rpms then even more power. Example: A tdi makes about 195lb ft @ 1800rpm. This equates to only 67hp at this rpm. If you could add a 100lb ft extra at this rpm you'd get 101hp @ 1800rpm. A relatively small increase in HP compared to the amount of torque. At the other end of the spectrum a stock tdi makes PEAK power of 111hp @ 4000rpm but at these higher rpms you only need to make 146lb ft of torque. If we could then increase this torque by the same 100lb ft to give us 246lb ft we'd see PEAK HP of 187hp. This of course assumes the power/torque curves remain constant. This is also the reason diesels make less PEAK HP that petrol engines. Petrol engines simply spin faster. A Honda Civic Type-R only needs 122lb ft @ 8500rpm to produce its 197hp.

Does anyone know how easy it would be to fit a BMW V8 (4.4 M62 petrol V8 from the early 3rd Gen Range Rover) to a Land Rover? Has anyone got one of these to mate to a LT77/R380 or the ZF auto from a RRC/Disco? Thinking Megaquirt to take care of the ECU side of things. How big are these engines? Will they fit a Defender/Discovery 1 engine bay?

Take it that's a no then?

Hi and thanks for replying to the thread. You along with a few others are citing broken cranks and rods as a problem. Now I'm not disputing this fact but so far the only exmaple I've found is of someone running a non LR OEM crank. Do you know of any examples where these failures have actually occurred? I ask because I'm not researching this as a full time profession and so far my research does not support these conclusion. I think this is only partly correct. Bolt on mods generally "free" HP which is lost by the setup, this generally places no extra strain on the engine itself. But yes you will reach a level where gaining a few more HP will cost a heck of a lot more. But considering the level I'm starting at I don't feel I've perhaps reached this level yet. Why not? Loads and loads of other people do, and to a very wide variety of engines. No I'm not claiming this is proof that all or any engine will be ok, but on the other hand I don't think such a generalised statement is any more accurate or representative of the real world either. I agree which is why I've been wanting to find out some real world examples of where these engine fail. If you took a car petrol engine an added nitrous until it broke you'd probably expect it to be pistons, rods or head. So to up the anti you'd probably fit forged pistons and stronger rods. So I guess a question is does a tdi motor have forged pistons as stock? Considering the high CR and the addition of a turbocharger I'd have thought so. But insight from others in this matter is welcome. See above Well ok. But where does traditional tuning end and start? Or what is even traditional tuning? The tdi has a turbo which is hardly traditional. Also if I want to add a high lift cam I'll need to account for higher rpms, more boost means possible a better turbo and increased pressure, a ported head is astronomically expensive with likely small gains. I AM listing, so if you where to max out the traditional route what would you do to a tdi? Bearing in mind I have already modified the exhaust, have a full width intercooler, upped boost and a tweaked injector pump.

Agreed there are a lot of other petrol Land Rovers. Supercharged Range Rover Sports for example, lol Seriously though, even the old Series motors running the 2.25 still often try and get more power, exhaust mods, induction, bigger carbs or for many simply swap in a Rover V8. In the pursuit of more power/torque. Sorry didn't realised I edit anything.. Ok so noted and you are correct to consider them as part of the whole picture and I should not have blatantly commented as I did. Although in the case of alternators and power steering pumps these would remain fairly constant even I opted for a n/a tuned 4.6 Rover V8 from a P38 Range Rover. In all seriousness I do know what you are getting at and surprise surprise I actually agree. I just disagreed with the comment that they weren't for road vehicles. Ok I must have miss read your comment too. I thought you were comment on me having said that. Coolio

If you've got a problem email Trev @ WONm and take it up with him for pity's sake.....

I seriously hope I'm wrong as it would be better for LR fans. But businesses do strange things. Ford bought the right to the Rover name fairly recently so as to protect Land Rover encase MGRover was sold and someone wanted to bring out a new Rover 4x4. Not too sure if this name has now been sold with LR or still resides with Ford. As for MGRover, they I think owned MG but only had Rover under licence. MG is now seperate and what was the Rover 75 is going to be relaunched as the Roewe or something I can't spell. I suspect as the right was only bought to produce the car and not the name. BTW - Sorry as this is off topic.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/Pro...;pcode=RED80204

Thanks for some interesting information. Here's some info from WON:

Hi and thanks for replying I'd have to disagree though. Loads and loads of people tune tdi's else why would companies such as Jermey J Fearn, Allisport and Twisted Performance exist? Because there was a market for it maybe? No I'm not claiming they are the pinnacle, but there are plenty of modified ones in use off road and on. Well the "petrol" Land Rovers you refer too all run the Rover V8, the main stay of petrol heads and V8 fans in the UK for the past 35-40 years. You can even buy a 6.0 litre version if you have enough money. Plus several people running modded petrol V8's have responded to this thread already. I'm really not wanting to sound like I'm arguing for the sake of it, but there are simply loads of modified Land Rovers, I know half a dozen or more people personally who run either modified tdi's, td5's or V8's in there Land Rovers. This was an issue with a select few 300TDI's and not common to every unit. As you say a simple fix, so it's hardly worth waving the white flags because someone mentions modding a totally different engine - 200TDI! Forget.... It was the whole point of this thread No I suspect that maybe no one has. But how am I supposed to know this? Also I never asked if anyone had. But considering the great diversity of people, vehicles and interests I thought that maybe there where a few higher powered tdi's out there. Didn't have to be via nitrous, but there are other tuning routes and plenty of companies that sell the parts. Also many seem to believe the tdi is a better/more suitable engine than a TD5 (although I believe this view may now be changing, and for good cause!) and the popularity of Comp Safari and other events. I'm not. And I hope you don't see my posts as insulting or anything else, they are just my response and no offense or harm is meant by them - no matter how badly I have phrased them, lol eh??? Never ever seen a tdi in anything but road vehicle - meaning as a production unit and not a one off. It's not an aero, marine or industrial engine. WTF Where have I said "Disco's are for the road". I'm running 33" frigging Simex Jungle Trekkers. Have dent in the side where I hit a tree trialling and brush painted bodywork.

I believe this is the case. Where the engine was built had no bearing on the fact. BMW also kept all the rights to many other great and lost British makes and models that hail back through BL and BMC. Riley, Wosley, Morris and many others. Also what about the fact that Land Rover didn't keep the rights to the BMW 6 cylinder diesel (P38A), 4.4 BMW V8, 2.0 Rover diesel, 2.0 TD4 BMW Diesel, 2.5 Rover KV6, 1.8 Rover K-Series, 2.4 Ford Diesel. I'll admit I don't know about the 2.7 V6 diesel in the D3. The Jag V8 is used by Ford and Lincoln so who knows exactly what arrangement has been made with Tata long term. But if I'm wrong about the TD5 then its GOOD news!

I agree, I was meaning more like a Scooby style scoop. It needs to be above the boundary layer to be effective unless you plan on using a naca duct. As for high pressure area, its more at the bottom of the wind screen than the top of the bonnet. The Mustang Cobra uses rear facing heat extracting bonnet vents: But to use a rear facing vent as an intake source you'd need it much closer the windscreen like the cowl hoods:

Yeah I'd say a dodgy earth somewhere. I know ages back on my Grandfathers Rover 600 when you put your foot on the brake pedal the headlights came on......