Josh NZ Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Hi all, I'm not sure if this has been asked before and I couldn't find many clear answers on google so bear with me. I have a series 2a from 1970 with the standard 2.25 petrol motor. The gearbox is a past its best but still useable currently, however, I would like to investigate swapping it for a series 3 box to gain full synchro (not for my benefit but for those who aren't savvy with the series 2a shifting action whom I allow to drive). Series gearboxes are cheap and plentiful where I live so sourcing a particular type shouldn't be difficult. I would hazard a guess because my vehicle is a late 2a that it will have a suffix E gearbox but will check when I get a chance. What other things do I need to change? I understand the bell housing doesn't match, but that's as far as I know. Also, i would like to retain the bent gearstick for factory style if possible. The car doesn't get driven much but will be used off road predominantly. I'm not hard on it either Explanations In dummies language please Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 I think that at 1970 you will have the bellhousing crossmember that clears a S3 slave cylinder, if not just trim the gussets to clear. The 2a gearstick will fit fine, its what mine still has. The clutch hydraulics will need replacing all bar the master cylinder with S3 parts. Oh also the S3 clutch cover is different to a S2a diaphragm cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I think that at 1970 you will have the bellhousing crossmember that clears a S3 slave cylinder, if not just trim the gussets to clear. The 2a gearstick will fit fine, its what mine still has. The clutch hydraulics will need replacing all bar the master cylinder with S3 parts. Oh also the S3 clutch cover is different to a S2a diaphragm cover. The series 2a diaphram clutch thrust pad can be removed. then the clutch is the same as series 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 Sweet as! so I need to swap my hydraulics over.. Which bits exactly? I'm basically after a bullet point list of bits needed and a blow by blow account of what needs to be done. Cab I use any old series 3 gearbox or is there a particular one I need? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Sweet as! so I need to swap my hydraulics over..Which bits exactly? I'm basically after a bullet point list of bits needed and a blow by blow account of what needs to be done. Cab I use any old series 3 gearbox or is there a particular one I need? Cheers Most series 3 boxes with the possible exception of suffix D examples are junk, with poor 1st and 2nd synchros and a tendency to prematurely wear in a way that causes them to pop out of 1st and 2nd on overun or when using engine braking down hill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 Ok, that narrows it down a bit. Would a suffix D type be sufficient with mostly overland type driving? Plus a bit of town driving (lightly driven) too. I'm guessing suffix D is around the 1980's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSF Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 In my experience all sorts of combinations of bits get called a series 3 'box when they are sold. My advice is that whatever 'box you get fully overhaul it before you fit it. Almost all the parts are cheap as chips and it is not worth skimping. A particular shortcut I have come across twice is someone replacing the layshaft rear bearing inner and rollers without changing the outer part in the rear of the gearbox because it's too difficult. It will fail very quickly. If you are going to do the job, do it properly, strip it down and take the gearbox off the transfer box and change all the oil seals. If you have any reservations about any of the gears change them; even the main shaft is not expensive. A rebuilt 'box of any suffix will be better than a worn out D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Ok, that narrows it down a bit. Would a suffix D type be sufficient with mostly overland type driving? Plus a bit of town driving (lightly driven) too.I'm guessing suffix D is around the 1980's? Suffix D box (1980s) is as good as Series boxes got (silk purse,sows ear an all). They have back tapered dog clutch teeth on the gears instead of parrallel sided teeth, so they tend not to pop out of gear. They also have a stronger tooth profile on 1st and reverse gears. Most series 3 boxes have a couple of holes in the casing behind the layshaft outer bearing to make replacement easy. From memory, the gearbox and suffix number was actually stamped on the transfercase, so if you are just buying a main box I can't remember how you can positively identify a Suffix D box without removing the gearbox top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Later D boxes have the bolts holding the reverse gate to the selector fork end are horizontal, all the earlier are vertical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Ok, that narrows it down a bit. Would a suffix D type be sufficient with mostly overland type driving? Plus a bit of town driving (lightly driven) too.I'm guessing suffix D is around the 1980's? Probably your best bet in NZ as here in Australia would be to try and source a suffix D box from a late S3 ex military LWB. I've seen very few civilian trucks fitted with them over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 So i cleaned up my gearbox tonight in search for the number. I have a suffix E model. I have decided to just check the condition of innards at this stage, so i drained the oil out and HOLY HECK!! It was like khaki coloured pea soup... bubbling and goopy (extremely aerated and full of water). I didn't find any metal chunks in the oil when i strained it so that cant be a bad start. I put some fresh oil in and i think it has a made difference in terms of noise. Its very quiet when i run it, i cant hear any howling or screaching. However... when i got to 40mph and feathered the throttle, it sounded like a motorway rumble strip or something and it was coming from the gearbox area. What could that be? And i think my clutch is poked as it shudders horribly on takeoff and any creeping or slow clutch release, and it sometimes wont change gear or go into gear from neutral. I also need to check the hydraulic system although i don't think there's any leaks. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 So i cleaned up my gearbox tonight in search for the number. I have a suffix E model. I have decided to just check the condition of innards at this stage, so i drained the oil out and HOLY HECK!! It was like khaki coloured pea soup... bubbling and goopy (extremely aerated and full of water). I didn't find any metal chunks in the oil when i strained it so that cant be a bad start. I put some fresh oil in and i think it has a made difference in terms of noise. Its very quiet when i run it, i cant hear any howling or screaching. However... when i got to 40mph and feathered the throttle, it sounded like a motorway rumble strip or something and it was coming from the gearbox area. What could that be? And i think my clutch is poked as it shudders horribly on takeoff and any creeping or slow clutch release, and it sometimes wont change gear or go into gear from neutral. I also need to check the hydraulic system although i don't think there's any leaks. Josh A shuddering clutch upon takeoff usually means oil contamination on the clutch friction plate.Rumbling on a feathered throttle may be due to bad propshaft u joints or u joints out of phase, particularly on SWB vehicles.Worn rear diff pinion bearings could also be the culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 Well bill i think its all of those haha! My landy has never been de-reg'd and been used its whole life so im not surprised its a little worn out. Ive never changed a UJ before in my life so im quite looking forward to trying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 So i cleaned up my gearbox tonight in search for the number. I have a suffix E model. Josh If thats on a series 3 it means its a recon of an A suffix case with D innards using a special reverse idler with a bronze bush in place of a roller bearing and the thinner A reverse shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 If thats on a series 3 it means its a recon of an A suffix case with D innards using a special reverse idler with a bronze bush in place of a roller bearing and the thinner A reverse shaft. Its on a series 2a Mr Phil, i'm only researching swapping a series 3 unit in at this stage. Although i'm encouraged by the state of mine by just changing the oil haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexi Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Nothing wrong with a 11a suffix e box if rebuilt or in good condition. Quite desirable in some quarters. Many boxes like that have 200tdi behind them for years with no trouble,driven sensibly. I have a 11a suffix D........goes great, only one rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 24, 2013 Author Share Posted March 24, 2013 Therein lies the problem. The vehicle is basically a weekend warrior or Sunday show off thing and my girlfriend likes driving it too, unfortunately the clutching action is hard for her to get and the gearbox takes a hiding haha. Hence the S3 box idea, but if I do refurb the s2a unit, it may play a bit nicer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 If you refurb the 2a box get the layshaft crack tested as they fatigue and fall in 2, i have seen many do this and had it happen to mine in the 109, it has now been replaced with a S3 box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 24, 2013 Author Share Posted March 24, 2013 Ok, cheers for the heads up! I'll add that to the list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexi Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 New genuine layshafts about 60 quid. Best build a 3 box if truck is not a historic rivet counter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 The best of both series boxes is a 2a box fitted with a modified series 3 layshaft.Grind off 1st and reverse gear teeth from a scrap series 3 layshaft and have a machine shop mill the 4 spline pattern to accept the press on 2a first gear.No more fatigue broken layshafts and mashed up gears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 Lexi, I am by no means a rivet counter and the truck is a mishmash of s2a and s3 bits (but you wouldn't know from looking at the outside) so I wouldn't lose any sleep about using a 3 box if I could make it fit, but it seems that if my 2a unit only needs a fresh set of hydraulic components and a new clutch then I may just soldier on with the 2a unit. I'm going to see a friend in the next few days who has the most wonderous series landy graveyard (population 50+ rotters/no rego-ers) and enquire about any suffix D g/box and t/box combos he may have. Bill- your technical knowledge is second to none, but it is simply too much for my pea-sized land rover brain I'm really only using the vehicle for the spring and summer so that amount of work would be unfeasible I fear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 The best of both series boxes is a 2a box fitted with a modified series 3 layshaft.Grind off 1st and reverse gear teeth from a scrap series 3 layshaft and have a machine shop mill the 4 spline pattern to accept the press on 2a first gear.No more fatigue broken layshafts and mashed up gears. Hmm, considdering that the point that they snap at is in the 4 spline section what have you gained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Hmm, considdering that the point that they snap at is in the 4 spline section what have you gained? Not quite at the 4 spline section. Layshaft failure on series 1,2 and 2a boxes is due to side thrust from excessive use of 2nd gear when pulling hard, towing etc. Look at the two halves of a broken layshaft and you will notice the break on one half is concave whilst it is convex on the other. This indicates the shaft flexes under load, and this flexing concentrates stress on the weakest part of the shaft (split ring grooves) or where there are abrubt changes is shaft section (behind the whiskers) On the earlier split ring type layshafts they snap at the ring groove. On the later whisker type shafts they generally snap just behind the whiskers. The series 3 layshaft having integrated 2nd and 3rd gears is more rigid and doesn't flex. The series 3 layshaft isn't a complete cure all for hard working gearboxes though. The mainshafts also flex. that's why the bronze distance sleeves break the way they do. So when fitting a more rigid layshaft, the flex that was formerly shared between the mainshaft and layshaft is now concentrated on the circlip groove that retains 2nd and 3rd gears, and i have seen a few series 3 mainshafts break there. I once tried building up 1st/2nd gear selector fork with minimal clearance in the groove of 1st gear slider which resisted the upthrust of the mainshaft when pulling hard in 2nd gear, but the force was too great and cracked the gearbox top lid. As I alluded to earlier, Series boxes are really Sows Ears, so I gave up and adapted a Ford Thames/Cargo 4speed box and haven't needed to look at it in over 15 years of heavy duty 4wdriving and forest clearing on my 40 acre bush block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh NZ Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Hmmm, ford Thames you say?? Had a look around, can't say I've ever seen one in my life haha but that might just be a little too much work for a weekend warrior! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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