Chicken Drumstick
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Posts posted by Chicken Drumstick
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Exhaust tuning relies on two things:
-gas flow
-exhaust pressure wave
Flow is the easiest to deal with. With diesel you basically want as much flow as possible, there's no need to balance it with back pressure to preserve the tune as you would with a petrol engine.
There are plenty of decent mufflers that flow more than enough not to affect the HP but should still reduce db levels. You may need to look at buying multiple mufflers though.
On a 2.25 you don't really need to worry that much, it doesn't produce much HP. I'd just slap some long sensible sized bullet mufflers in there. One about half way along and one at the back. I'd also run the exhaust all the way to the back of the vehicle as it should drone less and is further away from the drivers seat.
Have a look at Magnaflow mufflers, they are good quality and affordable. Check prices out on Ebay.
I'd say you'd want to run 2" tubing or maybe 2.5" if you want it to look beefier. The bigger the muffler the more silencing affect it should have.
I wouldn't worry about tuning for the exhaust pressure wave - I have no idea how to do it anyhow..
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Deffinately just a play thing. It's one of those things that when you finish a project you get that nice warm sense of wellbeing feeling and then decide to start modifying even more. I am under no illusion that this is going to be easy. Just been back and looked at link website and I think I might just have to spend the extra money and get a G3 link. Has anyone had much dealing with these in this type of application? I have on other applications like Subarus where everything is there for you. Some of the main benefits for the link are you can control V8 on coil, 4D fuel mapping, does away with air flow sensors and if using a gm boost control solenoid will control all boosting for turbos. You can also get the upgraded model with a 5 bar map sensor but I think that's a bit too much for what I'm looking for.
As a different approach have a look at STS turbo systems in the US. They aren't for Landy's but the rear/remote mount approach may not be such a bad solution.
And while I accept a turbo setup is complicated and probably above me, I can't see why a mild 5-7psi setup with suitable fuel and ignition control couldn't be used. Loads of guys the world over have done similar things.
I'd have thought a 4.0 litre V8 with 5psi of boost would easily wipe the floor with a n/a 4.6 RV8.
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I have an LPG powered V8i, that has a sweet running well serviced engine..... BUT is somewhat.......well slow!
My last 4x4 was a V6 Shogun with (standard) 170ish HP and would blow this into the weeds.. sadly..
It does have a blowback arrestor in induction pipe that reduces CSA of inlet massively, so that is heading towards the bin/Ebay!
...the purpose of the thread...
I am not after blinding performance, but want the thing to run as it should...
Is there anything that would massively effect its power that I should be focusing on.. ie Advance, Timing, Tuning etc ...
...I know it sounds a bit stoopid. ie All the above should be checked... What I really need to know is there any common issue on these V8's that effects performance when everything runs ok..
...It runs the same on LPG and Petrol by the way...
Cheers
M
You need to establish if its running right or not first. If it is then you want performance mods, if its not then you need to find the issue.
Cams and/or lifters wear on these motors, so if everything else checks out ok, this might be worth looking at.
The stock motor is all low end revs and grunt, and literally strangles itself at higher rpms. Combine this with fairly tall diff gearing, tall transfer high ratio gearing and only a 4 speed gearbox (if auto) then yes it can blunt performance.
If you want more umph the basic tuning rules apply, get as much air in as pos, as big a bang without breaking anything and get the hot gases out as quick as pos.
A decent free flow induction setup will help. As will a nice free flow exhaust, but these won't produce huge gains.
For more power you really need long tube exhaust manifolds, the longer the primaries the better - sadly these are almost impossible to get in the UK and usually expensive.
I don't know how tunable the stock ECU is, if its limited then switching to Megasquirt or even a 4 barrel carb setup is worthwhile.
Swap in a sensible cam and maybe some decent heads and bing - it'll feel like you gained a 100hp (although probably not quite that amount).
But there's no reason you couldn't see 200bhp+ out of it and still remain very nice on the road (on or off). Either that or try and pick up a 4.6 and swap it in, easy way to gain 40+ bhp.
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I see you are recognising that there are some negatives. Here's a summary of some aspects, based on my experience of running a system a few years ago, before Allisport were offering a service:
How large should the tank be, because while a large tank means it needs filling less often, a large tank is also more expensive, and is heavy even when empty, so can your springs handle it?
Because of the internal pressure, tanks can't be any old shape, fitting into whatever space is left, like a blow moulded plastic tank can. You can get complex shaped tanks, often made up of two or more standard tanks having big holes cut in them, then welded together (all professionally done and certified), but of course the price is high (even higher).
Then decide where to fit it. A plus is that IF, repeat IF, the mounting system is strong enough, the tanks themselves will take a strong hit without damage, so sill tanks will work, if there is space, and will stand close contact with the ground.
Then there is the snag of filling them; even if you go to a station (like some BP) where they have both Autogas and Diesel pumps, it's two separate operations. You pay for this facility in the price per litre. You had better not be in a hurry, and never think that the extra time spent filling will be made up by travelling faster. Life doesn't work like that.
If you don't go to a dual fuel station you have to go miles to find an Autogas station, so the fuel costs more anyway.
Then there's fuelling, how much? When? Really, however you engineer it, you are looking at the need to have two complimentary fuel maps (to use current phrasing). 'Engineer it' means crude on or off, or progressive, related to throttle position and boost pressure, plus EGT and coolant temperature controls if you wish.
You needn't worry about not recognising having the LPG fuelling too high, the resultant pinking is loud enough to defeat any sound proofing, or Direct Injection diesel knock.
Also, if you are putting in too much LPG to burn, but not enough to pink, the exhaust gives off a very distinctive sickly sweet smell. Very obvious in an underground car park. I notice the smell occasionally just walking in city streets and am never sure if it's a Diesel + LPG installation, or if Petrol engines running on LPG also give off the same smell due to incomplete combustion (due to overfuelling). I suspect they do.
If someone else already sells a system for your engine, then great, it's just money.
If you want to develop a bespoke system you had better be 'hands on' yourself, or have deep pockets, with hands that will reach the bottom so you can pay someone else.
Then there's maintenance. When you think the engine isn't performing as well as it used to, who's going to say whether it's diesel fuelling or LPG fuelling, or exactly which sensor is playing up? You've seen all the posts on here with people flustering over 'what is wrong', and the multitude of assessments that come back. At least there is a large body of people with experience of diesel engines, but diesel plus LPG? Take a good look in the mirror, the expert on your installation is looking back at you.
I know some people come to forums about every little problem, but I think you will need to develop the ability, if you haven't got it already, of making assessments (correct assessments) of what is happening, and creating solutions based on a good understanding of the principles involved.
If you are interested, it's a good hobby to follow, giving good training in systems assessment, etc. This is a transferable skill, over and above any specific Diesel + LPG knowledge you obtain.
It can depend on the base unit, but if it's any good as a diesel engine, there is next to zero chance of reducing running costs due to improved efficiency in burning the diesel. The total costs of the fuels rises more than the Miles Per Litre, or however you want to express it.
The additional performance comes as much, or more, from burning additional fuel rather than a more efficient diesel burn. Very difficult to find scientific evidence, one way or the other, about 'more fuel V increased efficiency' benefits. Measuring this needs some expensive kit, normally found in research labs.
Against this, get an engine with really poor combustion, that often gives black smoke, and high diesel consumption (I was told a version of the Toyota King Cab falls into this catagory). There the improved burn really shows itself, making the LPG fumigation system very rewarding. Or so I was told.
As always, plenty of web opinions (like this post is), some based on experience, some on imagination.
If anyone gets heavy, ask how they measure the LPG flow (Vapour or Liquid) in their car. Tank full to tank empty was the only answer I was ever given, which is a useless way of assessing fuel usage in a dual fuel system. I did try measuring, and recording, LPG Vapour flow, but the results were inconclusive.
My engine survived, I still use it today, but while the LPG system is still fitted, I don't bother using it. I relied on someone else to provide the fuelling control. While that was under development I decided to let them lead, (too many cooks spoil the broth). By the time it became apparent that his ideas weren't really working, I had seen enough of the negatives of daily use, and I no longer have the commitment to develop my own LPG fuel control system.
Have fun!!
Thanks for the informative reply.
Can I ask, was you setup similar to the one Allisport sell?
I'm not looking at it for daily use, just as a performance mod when required. I've heard of people saying the LPG tank should be 25% of the diesel tank, no idea if that's accurate or not, but providing it would not run out in 5 mins I'm ok with that.
I'd expect cost per mile to increase when in use, it would be burning 2 fuels afterall. I did rather disagree with Allisports ad about claiming better mpg as it is deliberately misleading.
I may be way off base, but my hopes or expectations would be to retain my current performance (tuned pump & turbo and full width intercooler) with moderate smoke @ WOT when propane not in use. At the flick of a switch gain ~ 25% HP increase (35-40hp). I wouldn't run it all the time, just when out for a spirited drive, pulling out on fast moving roads or joining dual carriage ways. Use it as a fun addition rather than part of the daily driver usage.
A smallish tank (I'd guess 3-5 gallons) shouldn't be so hard to locate on the vehicle and the duel filling part doesn't bother me. If the tanks empty it can stay empty until I either have the time/money/inclination to refill it.
Do you think I'm being a hopelessly optimistic????
BTW - what engine did you have yours on and what sort of HP boost did it give.
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We teamed up with Andy Chaplin (Posted higher in this topic) a few years ago on the MT's. He was running Propane. I have no ideas of the ins and outs or the drivability of it. One thing is for sure, When it was turned on the increase in performance was quite obviously impressive and well worth it. A lot of bang for ya buck if you ask me. Simple, reasonably cheap and more effective than pretty much any other mod on a diesel. Plus you only need to turn it on when your in situations where you think you'll need that extra performance so if your cruising along on tittling about the engine can run as std with no extra stress. I still cant understand why more people dont use it, If I was still running a diesel I'd have it fitted.
Thanks.
Have to say the more I read about it the more I want it. Just need to figure out where to put the propane tank in the Disco though, don't really want it in the back if I can avoid it, wonder if theres enough room underneath to keep them out of harms way off road??
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Nitrous is an oxidiser in that it adds oxygen to the process to allow a chemical reaction to take place.
Propane in a diesel engine is a catalyst - its combustion provides heat to encourage the diesel to burn more completely.
(I think
)I've seen it listed as a catalyst before, infact lots of automotive things get called that, I found this website which was quite interesting though: http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm
It says this:
Introducing LPG gas into the combustion air intake of a diesel engine acts as an accelerant, promoting the even burning of the diesel fuel, and more complete combustion, resulting in more power being produced. Many web pages and forum posts will call LPG a "catalyst" but this is not correct, as LPG creates no change in the molecular makeup of either the air or the diesel fuel.Although I admit I have little idea if its accurate or not...
Still wouldn't mind hearing some 1st hand experience with propane on a Landy Tdi though, I've heard of some on VW Tdi's but they didn't seem to report much success, although this might just have been their setup. But if it offers anything like the performance claimed in Allisports ad then it should be rather impressive.
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propane is to diesel what nos is to petrol
andy at (ALLISPORT) is away until monday
once you have fitted it and used it you will be prepard to lose arm`s instead of handing the kit back over
So you've tried it?
I understand how some can say like nitrous, but it's quite a differenet process as far as I understand. Isn't NOS an oxidiser while propane in diesel is an accelerant??
Guess I'll have to wait until next week and see if Andy gets back to me. Always has in the past (they tuned my 200Tdi and fitted the intercooler).
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I'm interested in the Allisport propane kit for my 200Tdi. I understand how it works and also know its not new.
I've tried emailing Allisport but to no avail. Does anyone having any experience with it? What sort of real world power gains should be expected and how reliable has it been?
I've seen what looks to be the same kit from a US supplier: http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/
Anyone know if it is the same?
Ta.
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not sure just chatting to people about the idea
is it poss to convert to coil without changing the chassis?
I'm not sure TBH, I think it sounds like a lot of work, especially when you can buy a new coil sprung 88" chassis or just chop down a RR/Disco chassis.
I'd have though welding the spring perches onto the axles and running with parabolic suspension would be a good bet if you just want the axles.
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White spoke could mean the turbo's on the way out IMO. Maybe burning the bearings up. Oil smoke normally has more of a blue tinge to it.
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I also agree, why spend money when its not needed.
If you are going to tear into it I personally wouldn't bother with stock parts. Go for a performance cam and maybe some decent heads, it'll really wake the motor up and allow it to run how its supposed to.
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Didn't NA built vehicles have a different ratio transfer box fitted to them compared to the TD and TDi vehicles?
Factory V8 90/110 models use the LT85 box, its a tad stronger but not as nice. A good LT77S or R380 for most people will be as good. RR and Disco V8 only ever used the LT77 or R380 (except early RR that had Lt95 4 speeder). Gearing is similar and diff gears are all the same.
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Am I the only one who thinks that a 200 TDi sounds so much more 'Land Rover' than a V8???? B)
I know what you mean, but yes in a way you are.
The V8 has been in Landy's since 1970 in the Range Rover, 79 in the Stage 1 and all thru the 80's in the 90/110. Not too mention others such as the 101.
Also in some markets (USA) the V8 has been the only engine available in RR's. Disco's and Defenders.
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To add another suggestion into the mix, although they can be tricky to get hold of have you considered moving away from the Land Rover engine and popping something like the Isuzu 2.8 or 3.1 TD engine in, they are WAY more reliable than any Land Rover engine and you will get much better mpg out of it and they have a certain sound to them that it really quite nice for a diesel.
Yes you have the extra hassle and expense of conversion kits etc. but it is very much worth it
Afraid I don't know much about these engines. Are they really worth the hassle when compared to a TD5? What sort of hp/torque do they produce and who makes conversion kits for them?
Thanks
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Thanks for all the advice very helpful and much appreciated, i have a few more questions based on what has been said,
1. Will the water succeptability of a v8 be an issue if i'm not planning to do any wading?
It might be or it might not. Some people have lots of trouble and some don't have any. Diesels never really seem to have a problem though. However if you're not going to wade in deep water, don't let this be the decider for you.
2. Is it difficult to find low milage v8's and are they expensive?There are lots of V8's about, but they always seem more expensive to me. You can buy a Tdi off Ebay for £350, most V8's seem to be around £500. You could buy an entire vehicle with either engine in for £300-500 pounds though (MOT failed RR or Disco).
3. Is there a huge difference in power between my old 2.5 n/a and a tdi?Cheers
Sam
Yes. A 2.5d has 67bhp and 100lb ft, a 200Tdi has 107/111bhp and ~195lb ft (Disco has slightly more power). However with a tweak of the injector pump you can get it drive a lot lot better. If you add a big intercooler to it its a whole different ball game. Up to around 70mph my modded 200Tdi Disco manual would give an auto 3.9 RR a could run for its money.
BTW - I've driven a few V8 Landy's, they are good and fun but a Tdi offers 90% of the ability with nearly double the economy.
The TD5 just makes the V8 look out dated (which it is) and will easily out perform a V8 or match it, even a 4.6
PS - I actually love the RV8, I have 3.5 making around 220-230bhp in a sports car. But I see the benefit of diesel engines in a Landy. Now if the Jaguar AJ8 DOHC engine was eaiser to get working without the rest of the car it came out of, then it would be a great option, sadly I don't think it's really that viable yet.
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Having almost finished my A-levels i can now devote some long awaited time to my 110 which has been sitting in the farm! I'll get straight to the point, It requires the engine to be changed as the old one has given up the ghost after many happy working years. I am in two minds about which engine to replace the old one with, I have been told by a knowledgeable friend that 200/300 tdi is the way to go. The vehicle will only really be used for off road work, playing around in the fields and occasional road driving. It is for this reason I am tempted by a V8, I am told they are relatively cheap to find second hand and can be converted to fit defenders easily and would prove better off road. Any suggestions as to which would be the best choice, the old engine was a 2.5 n/a diesel and was very sluggish.Is there anything else i need to take into consideration? Sorry if this question is asked alot, I would be grateful for any opinions as i know most users of the forum have alot of experience.
Cheers
Sam
Depends on what you want from it. A V8 is a nice way to go and will sound great but it does have it's downsides.
Mostly running costs, if you go carb expect 12-15mpg no matter what you do, EFI (Megasquirt) should see better mpg, but if you are averaging more than 18mpg then there would have been no point fitting a V8 as you evidently wouldn't be using in the proper fashion, if you know what I mean
Personally I'd say go for a diesel. A 200/300Tdi is pretty cheap now and with a few tweaks will run more power and torque than a 3.5 V8 and not be far behind a 3.9/4.0 RV8 (and arguably drive better). You'll also see 25-35mpg and will be better in the water.
I also quite like the sound the diesels make too. I've got a tweaked 200Tdi in my Disco, it should be making around 150bhp/260 lb ft compared to 134bhp/187lb ft for a low CR 3.5 V8.
If you have the money and ability your best bet would be a TD5 though. Fantastic engine and should be an easy swap into a 110. Ok they only have 122bhp/137bhp (Def/Disco) stock, but a few tweaks and your talking 200bhp+
TD5!!!
Only other oddball option would be a modern V8 like a Chevy LS, minimal of 350bhp. But this will be a lot more work and require tranny and drivetrain upgrades.
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I used to have trac-edges on my 90. Great DD tyre and will go anywhere anytime. Ok in the wet they are not as good as some road biased tyres on tarmac, but they are a very good everyday tyre. Personally preferred them to BFG A/T's.
Don't know how the remould will fair, but it should be ok. If I was looking for an AT I'd probably go for it.
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is it poss to put disco axels onto my series 3???
does any1 know of any indoor space to rent??/?
cheers all
Do you plan to retain leaf springs or convert to coil?
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im thinking 1" body just 4 ease of cleaning the chassis prob with loads of trimming is 5 doors
That's true, mines a 3 door so don't have the problem. Afraid bodylifts are a little out of my knowledge base though, hopefully someone else will chime in.
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you have seen those cummins powered pick ups on you tube then ????
wow they must be really well tuned lololol
rob
I have indeed!
:D :D :D And I just love em. Although I think the GM Duramax V8 is king at the moment. 6.6 litres DOHC common rail, variable nozzle turbo and all the trimmings. There are plenty making around 800bhp and 1200lb ft or torque. Sadly don't think a LR drivetrain or chassis would cope with that though..... -
was a mildly tweaked 3.9 rrc auto
im starting to think mine is ok tbh as i was behind a disco the other day up a hill and he was going down into 3rd (could see him shifting down through the back window) while i was still in 4th and trailing the throttle and his smoked much worse than mine so im now going to ignore it lol
will concetrate on getting the poly bush kit on it and seeing if i can make it handle as well as the rrc!!!
out of interest what tweeks do you have on yours??
rob
Smoke is good
the more smoke the more power in diesel tuning.Mines not too modded, just a Allisport full width intercooler and tuned injector pump and upped boost (it's a 200Tdi so now matches 300Tdi on boost). And a slightly freer flowing exhaust. I do run some big Simex mud tyres (33.11.50) and with stock gearing this does dampen the acceleration a bit.
While touring in Wales the other year I easily out powered a stock TD5 Disco II in the hills and on the straights, so I know it must be running ok. Having said that a stock D3 2.7 TDV6 will romp all over me as though I'm going backwards....
I've been looking into the Allisport propane kit, just waiting for them to get back to me with some more details. But I think it might be a good way to go.
If you don't mind slightly higher cruising rpms it might be worth looking at swapping the LT230 transfer box for one out of a Defender, those ones are more aggressively geared for high range, either that or change the diff gears, but that gets pricey.
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simex 35/11.5/15 heavy off road
thanks for the replies so far
Personally I think it's more about trimming than just lifting. Well trimmed arches and a 2" lift would probably do it IMO, but I am only guessing. Not really keen on body lifts myself.
You'll also need to hack the front bumper down if it wraps round the sides and the sills will also get in the way.
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see mine goes ok ish ( i think) but seems to smoke more than i think it should (only had it 3 weeks tho)
esp when laboring on a hill etc
has been de egr,d and de catted had pump tweaked with uprated intercooler and a itg panel air filter
has just had a major service inc cambelt (air filter blown out but will throw a normal paper element in it too eliminate that as poss blocked a little??)
the guy who serviced it runs a 200 tdi rrc auto and thinks that my disco is very quick but im comparing it to my old rrc v8 so maybe im expecting too much performance wise????
rob
ps sorry python for the hijack
What V8 did you have before?
Remember a decently tweaked Tdi should only be making around 150bhp/260lb ft with a limited rev range. It should drive well and have nice power delivery. But a 3.9 V8 has 182bhp and similar torque and should be quicker still.
I'm not far from you (just S of MK). If you wanted a comparison your welcome to have a ride in my tweaked 200Tdi Disco or run yours side by side with mine.
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Wow didn't even know there was a Commercial D3, don't think I've seen any on the roads. Do they still have the TRS?
)
I was just having a think - dangerous thing I know...
in International Forum
Posted
Further to this: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Buyin...cle/DG_10014199
All the talk about cars not keeping their ID and points scoring. With the DVLA watching us an all.
Does anyone have any info on how these points are validated or even the criteria required to mean that it should even be assed in the first place?
In the link above it says this:
But it doesn’t say what qualifies or why?
I ask this because then entire section is headed as:
Let me explain.
If you took a Discovery 3.5 V8i manual (LT77) and you swapped in a Land Rover 3.9 V8i, R380 gearbox, put some HD suspension on it (basically new shocks and springs), relocated the steering damper and put up-rated half shafts and CV joints in the axles. Would this now need to be SVA’d???
According to the list, only the chassis would have remained and it would have scored 5 points. So an SVA and a Q-plate??
Or are these changes not radical enough? So what is radical?
Anyone have any clarity on what is or isn’t allowed?
It all seems very confusing to me, with a total lack or clarification and distinction.