The Hatt

Thanks for your comments, but in all honesty my decision to run nitrous is made and this post was not if it’s a good idea or not but askig about the limitations and weak areas of tdi motors. Eh? Adding nitrous to petrol engines is safe and easy, yet for some reason its still the vast minority that do. Fitting a rear mount turbo setup isn’t that hard either, but still don’t see everyone doing it, does that mean its not such a good idea either? Have you tried looking for a 4.2 or 4.6 RV8 recently? I know there is always someone who knows someone, but when I’ve looked (online, Ebay and local breakers) they have going for stupid money if you can find them. Don’t get me wrong I love the ol’ Rover V8. But I also accept its vast limitations and cost. They may be smooth but they simply in n/a form don’t deliver torque like a TD. And then there is still the mpg issue. While 24mpg may be an average for my tdi Disco on a run at sensible speeds over 30mpg is more realistic. No Rover V8’d Landy will get close to those figures. The only other option is to LPG it, but if you want someone to fit it with a certificate that’s another £2000+. Also the TDI I’m talking about will drive like a mildly tuned one 85% of the time. And only develop more HP/torque when the nitrous is activated for when the extra grunt is required. It won’t be revving any higher it won’t be ragged. So are you telling me that all the other LR owners on this forum who put their foot down from time to time are sad losers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Firstly – NO! Secondly, it would still be fun to have a 2 ton off road orientated Landy to have a enough grunt to upset the majority of ricers and chavs and anyone else. But that’s just motoring really. Thirdly already have two fast cars. BUT I don’t have a V8 Land Rover and have no intent in buying one!!!! And a tweaked tdi actually runs pretty good. When I got my 200tdi Allisported my brother had a stock 3.9 Vogue Range Rover Classic. Fair do it was an auto and was running on stock road biased rubber. My Disco is a 3 door with a LT77 5 speeder and at the time had 31.10.50R15 BFG A/T’s on it. According to the butt meter (seat of your pants driving) the tdi felt a lot more lively and faster. So much so that my brother actually wouldn’t race me with his 3.9 V8. In all honesty I think if you pulled out on a straight bit of road and went from 5mph to 95mph then the tdi would have had the legs up until around 65-70mph and then the V8 would have been more on song and would have gotten to 90/95mph quicker. Another case in point is last year touring Wales, my uncle has a TD5 Disco II, ok its stock but it statistically produces more power than a tdi. In the hills I could generally hold a gear higher that him and on the straights pull away faster. The tdi was out muscling the TD5. But I’d still be getting 24+mpg every day and 30mpg on the motorway. That sounds like some good figures, but I suspect if you keep your foot in it 12-15mpg will be more the norm. That was certainly the case for the white V8 factory 90 we had. OFF TOPIC Got any pics of the 109 you can direct me at, sounds like one cool motor I love the LS series of motors, have one sitting outside in my Camaro. And yes I’ve looked at putting one in a LR. But I’d only do it to a Defender as I think part of the reason of doing would be lost if I used a Disco. But this route would likely cost between 5 and 10 times what I’m looking at spending on my tdi. BTW – DoD is that delivery on demand (or power on demand) because LS1’s don’t have that nor most of the LS2’s. I think some of the LQ iron blocked ones do. Could be wrong though. Lol, but this still ain’t cheap and won’t produce the low end grunt which is my main goal. Yeah, but come on seriously how much is it going to cost to buy the engine, buy the gearbox, modifiy the chassis, fit the darn thing, buy some form of ECU setup and fit it. Then there’s fuel/fuel tank and exhaust, cooling, transfer box and drive train. As an idea they all sound good. But could you seriously recommend to someone that this is a viable option on a budget under £1000? Lets assume that I only ever up to a 50 shot of nitrous and only get a PEAK increase in HP of 38bhp, although would probably see a lot more torque increase. That would still make it more powerful than a stock 4.0 RV8, with most likely more torque than a stock 4.6 V8 and probably faster than either because nitrous would offer the extra power/torque fairly evenly across the entire rpm band, thus producing more power more of the time. No it won’t be the fastest No it won’t be the ultimate No its not trying to take anything from anyone or any V8 Bit it will be fun Faster More powerful Cheap to buy Retain stock driveability Retain mid 24+mpg I really can’t see the problem. Its not as if I’m popping over to someone elses house at night and tampering with their tdi engines to see if the blow up instead of leaving a new shiny crate V8 on their driveway. It’s my vehicle. All I wanted was some info about the engine. But thanks anyway.

See this is living up to the friendly forum tag that come up on Google…. Well from what I can tell the WON systems massively out perform NOS systems in reliability and performance. Plus NOS may be the “Daddies” but that doesn’t mean they are now with the times. eh? Not building a tractor pulling machine. Just looking to improve performance of my ROAD going Disco without spending too much. I really love the Cummins and would buy a Dodge Ram 2500 just for that engine. But I seriously can’t see buying & importanting an engine which weighs about 900lb and is probably too big for the engine bay is going to be cheaper than fitting a £600 WON kit….. :confused: But if you can get a Cummins for this money PLEASE PLEASE Pm me. I think the tranny will be an issue, but as stated I’m going to start on smaller shots first. Plus if I replace tranny now it will cost. If I replace it once its broken it will still cost the same. So it’s not priority No. 1 at the moment. Thanks for your help though, you have provided some useful info

Thanks. thanks for the info. I agree about the engines, although my choice would be a Chevy LS1. 350hp/370lb ft stock. Small and lightweight, produces 90% of its torque from 1500rpm yet doesn’t mind to rev.

Well ok. As it currently sits I see a fairly decent 24+mpg overall average of all the driving conditions I encounter. I agree while running the nitrous I will expend more fuel but this will only be at times when the system is armed and activated at WOT. All other times it won’t affect mpg. I hope lol But that was my point, well partly. Exactly, I guess I may have been optimistic about HP levels on the tdi, but it does make a lot of torque even in stock trim. If Allisports figures are to be believed my tdi is making over 250lb ft @ under 1800rpm. A 300bhp (or 280bhp) 4.6 won’t be doing that at that rpm level. And I’m hoping that nitrous will see well over 300 lb ft at these low rpms. Well I don’t know exactly and I admit if you had 35” tyres on for the dyno run they wouldn’t have helped but it seems far far more drivetrain loss than similar Jeeps and Ford Bronco’s seem to lose on the rollers. This is an area I’ve done a lot of reading and research on and talked to many people across the world about it. And the conclusion is that if you are losing that much then something is wrong. I admit dyno type (inertia or eddy current) and correction factors (SAE, STD) will affect readings but never seen proof of this level of loss. In fact having spoken to a lot of Evo/Scooby owners State side I think they struggle to realistically claim 20-22% drivetrain loss with more like 18% working out nearer the mark using various calculations. But hay it’s a big topic and one where there are always a million opinions…. Better go check the strimmer 2 stroke mix……. lol Think I’ll just have to try a suck it and see approach. I’m not going to barrel in with a 150 shot but start off with a 25 and take it from there. Nope! Well my current Disco (the modded 200tdi) has a LT77 which I know won’t hack it. I do have a 300tdi auto waiting in the winds though. And while not the ultimate solution I know of guys in Aus and the US putting decent amounts of power/torque thru them. The other factor is while off roading in difficult situations the nitrous won’t be used so the extra torque will not be there to brake more stuff like that. It would only be at WOT so a very hill climbs, mudding but mostly just highway work.

Well that’s impressive but I do somewhat struggle to believe that’s an average mpg. Between myself, my brother and my father we have owned about 8+ different Rover V8 vehicles (various vehicles) and none have come close to that kind of mpg figure in a vehicle of that sort of weight. I’ve got a V8 TR7 which will in all honesty return 22-24mpg but it weighs less than 1200kg, is 2wd and fairly aerodynamic. But hay if you say you get 20mpg thumbs up Nice figures but still no 300bhp. 240 / 3.9 is only 62bhp per litre. Working on the same specific output a 4.6 would only be producing a tad over 280bhp. But it still sounds like an awesome engine. I can’t quite get my head around the numbers though, the dyno graph only shows a PEAK of 165hp, yes I know its whp. But unless my maths it totally pe-tong that means you are loosing 30%+ of your engine power via the drivetrain. It seems a little steep based on my previous research in this area. Please correct me if I missed something out… Not sure why I’d need either insurance or local authority planning to hold a moderate amount of nitrous oxide. I’m not talking articulated tanker, lol

Nope never claimed to know a lot or anything about nitrous, just that its proven. At least haven't meant to claim anything but that..... Help is needed please Could you add a little light to these crown temperature effects please.

I’d be REALLY interested in knowing how to attain this sort of power all day long from these V8’s. I’ve spent years with the RV8 and have a fairly highly modified one but it wasn’t cheap or easy. And doesn’t make low end grunt like a turbo diesel. I’m not knocking at all, I’m honestly very interested in this. I’m also a member of the v8owners.org forum and making this kind of n/a power from an Rv8 on this kind of budget is as far as I know unheard of. I’m not wanting this to turn into a how good an idea is nitrous thread. Ta. Yep, that’s why I’m trying to do a little research on the weaknesses in the tdi units. This is all good info, do you have any specifics examples you could point me at. I’m interested I the exact nature of the failure and where possible the cause. I’m also experienced in modified tdi’s, I’m on my 3rd and I have several friends running modified ones. Well this depends largely on where the weaknesses lie. I’m not out to make the most HP ever. Just more HP at reasonable cost with the engines I already have and while retaining a simple electronic free setup and diesel levels of mpg. Unknown. But by monitoring them with a gage and sensor and running a larger diameter exhaust off the down pipe and see how I get on. I guess the question is how do other people control EGT’s on tuned diesels? But I don’t have one of those engines. If money was not an issue then obvious choices string to mind of the 2.4 DOHC in the new Defender, the 2.7 V6 in the D3/Jag S-Type, the RR 3.6 V8 or one of the American diesels, Ford V8 or Cummins 5.9 Thanks. Maybe but I’ll never use anything but a WON (Wizards of Nos) nitrous setup for reasons which become obvious after a little research Not knocking other systems but the research is quite compelling. Also I’d like to see an RV8 do 24+mpg in a 2 ton Disco running 34” tyres. Thanks for this I’ll bear it in mind. As you seem to know your stuff how does £4/lb of nitrous sound? I’ve been quoted this for refills and somewhere in the £3/lb if I have a large storage tank at home and buy in bulk. Thanks again.

Have look at some oneline venders. Most aftermarket steering wheels can be purchased with the correct boss. I believe John Craddock sell some nice 14 & 13" steering wheels. Only leather look but then they aren't pricey either. I have one of the 14" ones and can't complain. If you want real leather you'll pay more. But you don't have to restrict yourself to just Land Rover specialists, Demon Tweaks and others sell steering wheels or maybe check Ebay. Personally I quite like some of the OMP alcantara steering wheels.

A BIG thanks to everyone who has posted so far. Its all helping. Keep it com'in

First off thanks for your reply, and my comments are not meant as how someone else put it "condocending" so I apologies in advance as they are just comments. I intend to use nitrous not nitro (as in nitromethane that top fuel dragsters run on). And as a side question, is there any reason you have no interest in nitrous? Just curious about the why behind the decision. As far as I know the engines are pretty similar, and there is a chance that I may have a 300tdi to use. Thanks Intent is to use stock turbo, nitrous will be injected as a dry kit direct into the intake manifold. So the turbo and intercooler themselves should, as I understand it have minimal affect. There will be increased cylinder pressure though. Do you know where I could get these gaskets from? Thanks. Trying to keep cost down. The engine was only £470 and the nitrous will be under a grand so sadly don't have funds to do a full and expensive rebuild on it. umm yes Currently in my thoughts too. It depends which route I go. I know that in reality the LT77 or LT77s stand no chance with these torque levels, so that rules out the LT85 and the R380 too. However if I opt for a progressive controller I should be able to minimise the shock load to the driveline. If I opt to use the 300tdi instead then thats got an auto on it so should be ok for a bit. As for the rest of the driveline think I'll look at replacing bits with HD units as and when they break. Thanks for your help. BTW - do you have links for the US websites modding the little Cummins? Ta

yeah I've got a Lr mag somewhere with a LPG article in. Think its more that nitrous is easy to setup, can be bought as a kit for the purpose and produce more hp. On another forum someone has lpg on their VW which they are removing as it doesn't give as much gain as hoped. Think they said about 12bhp on the dyno where nitrous was offering up over 70hp

sorry not meant to be. if it helps point out the bits you don't like and I'll edit them

Thanks that's some really useful info. I know of a device that can replace the smoke screw on the pump and is actuated when the nitrous is in use to add extra fuel. Do you know, these ratings from Bosch are they what they expect the pump to be used for in stock trim. Does tweaking the pump alter these figures? Thanks again

I agree nitrous is only good while the bottle is full. But it won't be active all the time or even armed. A lot of time it'd be switched off and when armed only kick in at WOT and with the use of a progressive controller it should be fairly efficient. Plus other tuning methods only generally offer the goods at set rpm or throttle conditions so its not all that different. The idea is more for road use than off road, although I guess in certain off road situations a tad more HP wouldn't go amiss Thanks for your help.

Thanks for replying When you say seriously unreliable, do you have experience of this or know someone who has had failed pistons at lower hp levels? nope - will explain... As my understanding goes people get this level of power with just exhaust, intake, intercooler and tuning and still remain emissions legal without a cat. I've not know of this actually pushing the engine to it's limits, just a limit most consider after having spent a few grand. BUT, if I'm wrong and you know of actual engine failures at this level please please post some more info. lol :lol: :lol: I take it you've never tried tuning a Rover V8 then, no offence meant but the Rover V8 is old, inefficient and horrendously expensive to modify not too mention likes far too much of a drink. Please note, if you disagree, don't like or have no experience with this tuning method please don't bash. There is a lot of information available and I'll be happy to supply what info I can. Ok currently the vehicle is running a modified exhaust, tweaked injector pump, full width intercooler and upped boost (it's a 200tdi). So pretty regular tuning stuff. The engine is 100% stock otherwise. Allisport claim a 35% increase in performance. Well I don't have figures but it certainly runs better and a simple calculation gives me (111bhp + 35% and 195lb ft + 35%) ~150bhp/263lb ft +- Now for the interesting bit - well its called nitrous oxide :blink: Yes I know many claim it blows up engines and shouldn't be used. But those self same people also used to claim superchargers and turbo's do the same. But history has proven them to be reliable. Nitrous has been a proven technology for over 30 years. My intent is fuelling permitted to attempt to run a 100 shot or greater, but while turbo diesels are usually built tougher due to their design requirements (18:1 CR, etc.) I don't know what limits a Landy tdi has. In the nitrous world there are several guys running 1.9 turbo diesels and making great reliable power. The Vauxhall unit has proven successful with its newer common rail design and has reliably produced 250bhp/380lb ft from a 1.9!!!! The VW direct injection 1.9 has also proven capable of in excess of 230bhp with ease. With the larger displacement of the tdi and ease of being able to tune the Bosch injector pump I hoping more will be attainable.

In need of some tdi experts/guru’s. I’m trying to find out where the weak links are in the 200 and 300tdi engines in terms of making big power or rather how strong are the stock internals. So my question is how much power can these engines take before you can expect failure, be it a crack piston, piston rings, bent con rod, cracking the head, etc. Anyone know of anyone running BIG Hp on these motors? Maybe like 230-300bhp and 400-450lb ft?