SMOKING DISCO !!!

[foxminer]

Hello all, i`ve just done the head gasket on my td5 all went well fully rebuilt, now my problem is i think one of the injectors is broken. My symtoms are that the fuel pump does not stop priming even after bleeding the system, and when the van is running it throws out lots of smoke which has been identified as diesel,is it possible that one of the injectors is stuck open and is there a simple test for this?.Also do you need the special tool to take an injector out?.

Any help or suggestions gratefully appreciated.

Foxminer.

[BogMonster]

EGR valve jammed open?

does it misfire at all or just loads of smoke?

if an injector is dead it will misfire and the engine will hop around at idle with a very definite "Winget cement mixer" noise

[foxminer]

EGR valve jammed open?

does it misfire at all or just loads of smoke?

if an injector is dead it will misfire and the engine will hop around at idle with a very definite "Winget cement mixer" noise

It does sound as if it is onlys firing four and it is bouncy on idle,with lots of smoke.

[BogMonster]

could be an injector then

most common fault causing a misfire is the wiring harness feeding the injectors and it is only about 40 quid against a few hundred for an injector. Usually though, it is fine when the engine is cold but the misfire gradually appears as it warms up and is bucking like a b*****d by the time it gets really hot. It also doesn't usually cause any smoke.

I think what you need to do is get it plugged in to a computer, the "cylinder balancing" on the Testbook will tell you which cylinder is causing the problem and it can then be narrowed down from that. If it is not the harness, then other possibilities include a broken injector spring (seen a couple) or a defective coil in the injector solenoid (also seen a couple). The coil will show up on the "injector click test" you can do with Testbook (fires each solenoid in turn to check it is working) and the spring will be pretty obvious. They are the most common failures but not the only ones - hard to say any more than that without seeing the vehicle. Either of the latter faults will need a new injector and that will in turn need a Testbook to programme in the injector code to the ECU so it is not a DIY proposition I'm afraid.

[foxminer]

could be an injector then

most common fault causing a misfire is the wiring harness feeding the injectors and it is only about 40 quid against a few hundred for an injector. Usually though, it is fine when the engine is cold but the misfire gradually appears as it warms up and is bucking like a b*****d by the time it gets really hot. It also doesn't usually cause any smoke.

I think what you need to do is get it plugged in to a computer, the "cylinder balancing" on the Testbook will tell you which cylinder is causing the problem and it can then be narrowed down from that. If it is not the harness, then other possibilities include a broken injector spring (seen a couple) or a defective coil in the injector solenoid (also seen a couple). The coil will show up on the "injector click test" you can do with Testbook (fires each solenoid in turn to check it is working) and the spring will be pretty obvious. They are the most common failures but not the only ones - hard to say any more than that without seeing the vehicle. Either of the latter faults will need a new injector and that will in turn need a Testbook to programme in the injector code to the ECU so it is not a DIY proposition I'm afraid.

Getting on the computer tomorrow,the guy who`s going to do it for me said don`t be suprised if it`s a pump problem maybe over pressureising,i did not think this was possible.Has anyone had this problem?. Further to the pump question is the pump meant to stop once the correct psi is obtained or does it still run on or return to the fuel tank?.

[BogMonster]

never heard of over pressure, more often under pressure due to the pump having conked out!

it might be possible but I have never seen one with this problem

Switch the ignition on the pump should run for about 30 sec then stop, it should be running all the time when the engine is running though

[foxminer]

never heard of over pressure, more often under pressure due to the pump having conked out!

it might be possible but I have never seen one with this problem

Switch the ignition on the pump should run for about 30 sec then stop, it should be running all the time when the engine is running though

Do i need to buy the special tool to take injectors out?.A mate of mine has a full bank of spare injectors if i need one i`m just wanering if they can be taken out easily enough?.

[JimAttrill]

We just fixed a TD5 with prezackly this problem, pump making noises, engine running very rough, etc. Put a pressure gauge and clear pipes on the inlet and outlet pipes and could see air in the outlet after starting the engine. Soon the air returns in the inlet from the pump and the engine runs terribly, eventually stalling. The pressure was fine at 4 bar. We changed all 5 injector washers and problem is fixed completely. The computer showed the cylinder balancing to be all over the place.

ps we also tried the injector harness first as we had one on the shelf. Also the ECU ditto. Neither made any difference.

We use a pry bar to get the injectors out, btw.

The owner had it towed to us as a 'last resort' after another garage had changed the fuel pump. The fact that the pump made strange noises was caused by the air in the system, not the pump itself.

[BogMonster]

We just fixed a TD5 with prezackly this problem, pump making noises, engine running very rough, etc. Put a pressure gauge and clear pipes on the inlet and outlet pipes and could see air in the outlet after starting the engine. Soon the air returns in the inlet from the pump and the engine runs terribly, eventually stalling. The pressure was fine at 4 bar. We changed all 5 injector washers and problem is fixed completely. The computer showed the cylinder balancing to be all over the place.

ps we also tried the injector harness first as we had one on the shelf. Also the ECU ditto. Neither made any difference.

We use a pry bar to get the injectors out, btw.

The owner had it towed to us as a 'last resort' after another garage had changed the fuel pump. The fact that the pump made strange noises was caused by the air in the system, not the pump itself.

interesting

we had to change injector washers in one recently but the fault was not this but bad starting and intermittent engine cutting out suddenly, we changed all the injector sealing washers and it was fine.

[foxminer]

interesting

we had to change injector washers in one recently but the fault was not this but bad starting and intermittent engine cutting out suddenly, we changed all the injector sealing washers and it was fine.

Hi all, just had the diagnostics done and all the injectors are working fine (it did show alot of faults at first because the head had been off) but once it had been reset it showed no further faults .the only conclusion was that the pump timing on the injectors are all wrong and injecting at the wrong times.I know the injectors were taken out but i don`t know if the adjusters were moved.He says because of this timing fault this is what is making it smoke so much and make it appear to be missfiring.So onto yet another question does anyone know the correct procedure for the pump timing and can it be done at home.

Can i just say what a site this is i`d have been lost forever without everyone who takes time out of thier own hectic life to help others at thier time of Landrover despair!! THANKS.

Foxminer

[BogMonster]

the fuel pump on a Td5 has no role at all in timing, it just provides fuel at 58psi all the time (or not!)

timing is controlled directly by the ECU, the ECU triggers the solenoid inside each individual injector which is what causes the fuel to be injected

if it really is a "timing" fault then either the cam chain is out of position (unlikely or probably impossible unless the engine has been dismantled), the ECU is buggered or the ECU is receiving an incorrect signal from the crank position sensor causing it to think the engine is in a different position to where it actually is - which means it is injecting fuel at the wrong moment

The only other possibility is that the injectors have been taken out at some point and the correct procedure has not been followed for re-fitting the operating cam that pushes the individual injector plungers down to pressurise the internal fuel supply, it is not done the same way as you would check valve clearances (for example) - but is clearly described in the WSM

[foxminer]

the fuel pump on a Td5 has no role at all in timing, it just provides fuel at 58psi all the time (or not!)

timing is controlled directly by the ECU, the ECU triggers the solenoid inside each individual injector which is what causes the fuel to be injected

if it really is a "timing" fault then either the cam chain is out of position (unlikely or probably impossible unless the engine has been dismantled), the ECU is buggered or the ECU is receiving an incorrect signal from the crank position sensor causing it to think the engine is in a different position to where it actually is - which means it is injecting fuel at the wrong moment

The only other possibility is that the injectors have been taken out at some point and the correct procedure has not been followed for re-fitting the operating cam that pushes the individual injector plungers down to pressurise the internal fuel supply, it is not done the same way as you would check valve clearances (for example) - but is clearly described in the WSM

The injectors were taken out by crewe engines when i had the head pressure tested,i don`t know if they put them in the right way again or not.I also noticed that the adjuster on the injector cam was in a different possition this i believe will make a difference.

I have spoken to a landrover mechanic today and he say`s the same as Jim that maybe the injector seals or washer are knackered.

This could cause the pump to keep priming as diesel is getting past.

I cant get new seals till tuesday because its bank holiday monday,but i will get new seals, washers first thing tues.

I also understand taking the injectors out is just a case of prising them out,if this is not the case could you please let me know.

[BogMonster]

ah....

maybe the injectors are not all back in their original positions then! the injectors are "graded" and the correct grades have to be in the ECU for each injector position so the ECU can account for individual differences between injectors. I am not sure how much difference it makes in practice but it is worth making sure that it is right before you do anything else! You would need access to a Testbook or similar to check the values in the ECU and need to take off the rocker cover and read the grades off the top of each injector this is a five letter code like ECDMA or something, all 5 will be different

[Les Henson]

I have limited knowledge of the TD5 unfortunately, but gutless and smoke is usually attributed to incorrect timing on other diesels. I can't see that a garage would have any reason to dismantle or 'fiddle' with the injectors themselves unless they knew absolutely nothing about engines. I don't think the pump running all the time would cause the problem as there is no way the pressure would pass through the injector pump without it being stopped by it. The injector pump raises the pressure a lot higher than the primer pressure, so apart from the pump running continuously, it wouldn't make that much difference to the performance of the engine? When you say the head gasket went - what were the syptoms? Did you have the head skimmed and/or crack tested. I would have thought that if the injector sealing washers were leaking, there would be some sign of that - either compression leaking out or fuel. A leaking injector sealing washer would cause the engine to smoke - the garage should have replaced them as part of the work anyway.

Are the running syptoms the same now as before the head was worked on?

Les.

[foxminer]

I have limited knowledge of the TD5 unfortunately, but gutless and smoke is usually attributed to incorrect timing on other diesels. I can't see that a garage would have any reason to dismantle or 'fiddle' with the injectors themselves unless they knew absolutely nothing about engines. I don't think the pump running all the time would cause the problem as there is no way the pressure would pass through the injector pump without it being stopped by it. The injector pump raises the pressure a lot higher than the primer pressure, so apart from the pump running continuously, it wouldn't make that much difference to the performance of the engine? When you say the head gasket went - what were the syptoms? Did you have the head skimmed and/or crack tested. I would have thought that if the injector sealing washers were leaking, there would be some sign of that - either compression leaking out or fuel. A leaking injector sealing washer would cause the engine to smoke - the garage should have replaced them as part of the work anyway.

Are the running syptoms the same now as before the head was worked on?

Les.

The syptoms i first had was oil in my cooling system(earlier post), after several rounds of flushing and the i tried Irontite to see if this would do the trick.It didn`t work for me because whilst driving to the shop it suddunly started smoking heavily. I then took the head off and dropped it off at Crewe Engines to have the following performed;

chemical clean

pressure test

reface cyl head, After rebuiling i still have the smoking ,running poor,definitly diesel smoke, changing injector washers this morning. And finally i do appear to have the same problem as before the head was done but as i said the smoking came just after spotting the original problem.

Foxminer.

[foxminer]

HHHMMM, just changed all injector washers and rubber o rings, pump still priming, still lots of diesel smoke,still bouncing on idle.

All i can think of now is maybe the diesel rail in the head is cracked and fuel is still getting into the cylinder i had the head pressure tested but i don`t know if that will detect leaks in the fueling system.any ideas or help greatly appreciated.

Foxminer.

[Les Henson]

I don't think a normal crack test will be for the fuel system at all - they are usually to check for leaks between cylinder pressure and cooling system or outside air. A diesel specialist should be able to check for any loss of pressure in the rail, but I would have thought that the crack test would have failed because compression would still disappear, but into the rail, rather than to the air or cooling system.

Les.

[JimAttrill]

ah....

maybe the injectors are not all back in their original positions then! the injectors are "graded" and the correct grades have to be in the ECU for each injector position so the ECU can account for individual differences between injectors. I am not sure how much difference it makes in practice but it is worth making sure that it is right before you do anything else! You would need access to a Testbook or similar to check the values in the ECU and need to take off the rocker cover and read the grades off the top of each injector this is a five letter code like ECDMA or something, all 5 will be different

We had a Disco II in the other day which went OK, and the owner said that another garage had 'tuned' his engine. This seemed to consist of mucking around with the grades of the injectors. It was noticeable that two of the injectors had identical codes which is rather suspicious. There are some strange people out there.....