3.5 Vogue 1988 running problem help

[Ladge]

Flapper systems are by nature now old, and even when they were new they were not

exactly qulaity systems, rememeber BL / Rover etc were in cash probs even back then.

As such these systems inc hotwire can be problematic, and there are no diagnostics as such

its sort of hit and miss. and that in itself is an issue, I've spent years with V8s and the one

thing I've learnt is they can drive you insane.

IMVHO the way to deal with this is in 3 steps

1st - is the engine in KNOWN good health ?

Thats GENUINE Dizzy Cap (pattern one just cause greif more times than I can recll)

GENUINE or very high quality Leads inc King lead, that excs ebay specials, mates 2nd hand

freebies from his shed (Thems good uns them is) etc and a Bosch coil pref, and NOT a intermotor

bagain special, genuine Dizzy Arm, cleaned tight earths on back of head and battery to chassis etc, NGK Spark plugs, new

and gapped properly, air filter new, timing set with strobe and advance working, AFM and other connectors cleaned

proper fit, CTS KNOW good genuine pref and a spare BRAND new genuine as a test unit, known OK comp test, fuel pressure

tested fine, Fuel filter new, no air leaks (spray WD40 on trumpet / inlet joint hoses when running

and don't set fire to yourself of course etc etc etc

2nd

Try 50/50 approach.

Its either spark probs or fuel prob, make a stab and an educated guess then go into the Tech forum and look for the

diagnostic manuals for both Flapper Systems and Hotwire system, pick the right one and then METHODICALLY work through

each of the tests, starting with those on the 50% side you think it is, if that doesn't work then its the wrong inital guess

The tests are also good when known good units - KNOWN PROVABLE Good units can be inteerchanged, again not a ECU wot i avad under

me bench m8 for 4 years thats a goodun that is, more from a OK running V8, removed and tried THATS known good

Patience, and a structured methodical approach will often be the only way to fix real tricky probs, by all means

have educated guesses - as you may well get it right, but after a few of these if they don't do it (and often they do) then

use the Manuals I posted in the Tech forum.

And again, make sure the basics cap / dizzy lead etc is 101% done, DON't use patten c**p intermotor coil 4 pronged whizzy chav plugs,

and some unit of unknown "but its a goodun m8" type - you'll just miss the fault

HTH

Nige

Thank you for those words of wisdom. your Haslemere I'm Midhurst small world Paul

[ramon alban]

Flapper systems are by nature now old, and even when they were new they were not exactly qulaity systems, rememeber BL / Rover etc were in cash probs even back then.

As such these systems inc hotwire can be problematic, and there are no diagnostics as such its sort of hit and miss. and that in itself is an issue,

Hello Nige, All the above is so very true and even as most of the components themselves were pretty much bulletproof (with a couple of exceptions), the worst enemy of our Flapper systems today is dirt and neglect.

As purchased and for several years thereafter original sharp suited owners had their Full Service History, and dependent wholly upon their franchised service agent, the flapper systems held up pretty well, despite the original cost vs quality issues you mentioned.

Then the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation of owners took over, dropped their routine servicing down to brake pads, oil and filters and completely overlooked cleanliness and wiring connector/air pipe security.

Thus it came to pass, crudded up throttle and plenum chamber, blocked breather, corroded connectors, split rubber tubes, emerged tenfold, thus our sad/old flapper systems got themselves into a terrible state and started to give up the ghost, ad nausium.

Now, all new owners came to believe some sort of black art was required to diagnose fault conditions and all this time fewer and fewer flapper-wise technicians populated the planet. Woe, Woe and Thrice Woe!

Now the hobbyists come onto the scene - from 1993, I'm one - and bemoaned a lack of expert help, even then. So for them there was/is really only one solution - DIY and internet forums.

To that end, I had to overcome and combine my complete ignorance of motor cars and fuel injection systems with my diagnostic career in hi tech, persuading myself that this could not be rocket science. I just needed an edge. And so it came to pass, I acquired a copy of the LR Technician Training Manual and Video for the Flapper Efi and set my sights of becoming self-sufficient.

Without that training manual nothing made sense. It was the key to the door and the bible from which everything else flowed. After the first few years with my car I knew enough to be confident to write it all down again, not in tech training terms, but a changed lingo that the DIY home mechanic could assimilate in Club magazines, journals, etc, all too early for the internet, then, of course.

Now, with more knowledge and refinement plus the power of my own website, the end result is what appears on my web pages and, I agree 100% with you - patience, and a structured methodical approach is the key to success for the enthusiastic hobbyist.

For those who cant do this thing, it leaves only the expensive scattergun approach to component replacement whilst sadly overlooking 80% of the likely causes, air leaks and connection problems, undiagnosed and still part of the perceived black art.

A better alternative to scatterguns is to clearly gather up all the signs and symptoms, state the car and the system, post it all on one of the various available forums (forii?) and let the dogs loose.

Trouble is, even when answers seem to be logically analysed and proposed, sometimes an originator reverts to the scattergun, and like an oil tanker on collision course, no amount of pleading can change the turn of events.

Its a shame but thats the truth of it.

[Ladge]

Ok I bought a temperature to ecu sensor and fitted it about an hour ago, ran engine up to running temp, turned the engine off for about 4 minutes, turned it back on no change exactly the same as before. Oh and I cleaned all earth connections. Tomorrow I'll try a replacement ECU

[SteveRK]

If it starts o.k from cold and noting the items you have already replaced and on the basis that it is not driveable when warm i would be looking at either a)sediment in the petrol tank blocking the fine gauze filter on the input to the pump. I had this problem on an old Jaguar whereby it would take a few miles for the pump to suck up the deiment enough to severly restrict fuel flow to the point where the engine ran rough. worth pulling the pump out the tank - assuming you have the access cover in the rear floor - if not then its quite a long job.

Or b) the petrol tank vent is blocked resulting in a vacumn preventing fuel from being drawn out by the pump.

[Ladge]

Thanks for your reply, however I can keep the engine going if I up the revs and could drive it but upping the revs the engine runs very lumpy

[ramon alban]

Any idea what the condition of the spark plugs is like after the engine has stalled?.

Check at least one plug from each bank. preferably a couple.

Looking for black/wet condition indicating overfuelling. If one side is ok and the other is black/wet then its a cinch for ECU problem.

If both sides wet/black, we are still looking for ECU or temp sensor connector probs.

Also possible fuel pressure regulator failure, or a really BAD throttle pot.

If there is no evidence of black/wet then fuel starvation as mentioned in new posts is a distinct possibility.

[Ladge]

Guys I pulled the plug from the ECU and cleaned all the contacts pushed it home again, and the engine is running somewhere near what it should, well at least it stays running at a reasonable rpm now, not quite right but 98% there. I did pull two plugs as Ramon suggested they are clean, think I will get another ECU and fit as soon as weather breaks, then see how it runs.

[Ally V8]

Shout if you get stuck for an ECU,I think I have 3 or 4 good ones in stock.(Plus about 5 faulty ones.)

[Ladge]

Shout if you get stuck for an ECU,I think I have 3 or 4 good ones in stock.(Plus about 5 faulty ones.)

Thanks Ally worth knowing what price mate.

[ramon alban]

Guys I pulled the plug from the ECU and cleaned all the contacts pushed it home again, and the engine is running somewhere near what it should, well at least it stays running at a reasonable rpm now, not quite right but 98% there. I did pull two plugs as Ramon suggested they are clean, think I will get another ECU and fit as soon as weather breaks, then see how it runs.

Why? You have almost certainly found the fault, by following the highlighted advice in my first post, #9:

"You should be looking for broken CTS connector contacts, broken wire in the Efi loom, dodgy/corroded earth connection on the engine block studs behind and below the L/H rocker cover, faulty connection in the contacts of the ECU multiplug. Fix the latter carefully with a wooden kebab stick. For good measure, and to last a lifetime, clean and spray WD40/Switch cleaner into all Efi wiring loom connectors and fill with vaseline before reconnecting.

If its running at 98% the remaining 2% won't be found inside a fresh ECU. Finish the ECU multiplug cleanup as suggested and move on to an overall health check for your Efi system (used to be known as a tune-up).

I have documented fifteen things a boy can do under the psuedonym of eliminating power losses (but, whats in a name?).

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/Snippets/MorePower01.html

Being keen on finding the lost percentage will mean extreme diligence addressing those 15 items. Indeed, with a bit of luck, you'll probably find more than the missing 2%.

By its nature, when faced with methodical advice, one is tempted to miss out some steps! If so, think about the young bull who said to the old bull, "Look! There are some cows in the meadow! Let's run down do a couple". The old bull replied, "Nah! Let's walk down and do the lot! Otherwise, you'll never know how much fun you coulda had!"

[Ladge]

Why? You have almost certainly found the fault, by following the highlighted advice in my first post, #9:

If its running at 98% the remaining 2% won't be found inside a fresh ECU. Finish the ECU multiplug cleanup as suggested and move on to an overall health check for your Efi system (used to be known as a tune-up).

I have documented fifteen things a boy can do under the psuedonym of eliminating power losses (but, whats in a name?).

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/Snippets/MorePower01.html

Being keen on finding the lost percentage will mean extreme diligence addressing those 15 items. Indeed, with a bit of luck, you'll probably find more than the missing 2%.

By its nature, when faced with methodical advice, one is tempted to miss out some steps! If so, think about the young bull who said to the old bull, "Look! There are some cows in the meadow! Let's run down do a couple". The old bull replied, "Nah! Let's walk down and do the lot! Otherwise, you'll never know how much fun you coulda had!"

I will follow your instructions starting tomorrow

[jakebullet]

Hi Ladge,

Any updates on this?? ive read every single bit with facination

jake

[Ladge]

Hi Ladge,

Any updates on this?? ive read every single bit with facination

jake

I have run through the checks and found nothing, I took plenum chamber off and checked all ok, all air pipes ok, Throttle Position Sensor ok, wiring to temperature sensor ok sensor ok, coil ok, petrol valve ok injectors working ok, all earth connections ok wiring to ignition ok, distributor cleaned and ok, timing ok. In short all ok but problem still there, I got a mechanic friend round to have a look he scratched his head. I put all the symptoms onto a site where they have top mechanics and engineers who answer your question for a fee, after spending an hour chatting to a man with a degree in engineering and mechanics I was still no further. So I will have maybe a couple more goes at it and if it still refuses to run properly I’ll scrap it.

[paintman]

I've just had the ECU go on mine. 3.5EFI flapper with Lucas 4CU ecu.

Sudden lumpy idle at traffic lights when hot on petrol, runs perfect on LPG. Substituted the spare ECU I've had for years & normal service instantly resumed. Putting the old one back on just re-creates the problem running.

So don't assume it isn't the ecu.

Either substitute with known good one or get yours tested.

Have a look here http://www.carelect.demon.co.uk/rrind.html

[Ladge]

I've just had the ECU go on mine. 3.5EFI flapper with Lucas 4CU ecu.

Sudden lumpy idle at traffic lights when hot on petrol, runs perfect on LPG. Substituted the spare ECU I've had for years & normal service instantly resumed. Putting the old one back on just re-creates the problem running.

So don't assume it isn't the ecu.

Either substitute with known good one or get yours tested.

Have a look here http://www.carelect.demon.co.uk/rrind.html

Yes read that thank you, I did try a known to be good ecu with no change in running. I also spoke to a firm on the Isle of White who told me this ecu is well known to cause faults. I’m a bit reluctant to spend on the ecu I was quoted around the two hundred mark, I am planning to get rid of this rangy very shortly but obviously it would be good if it was running properly, I’ve had all sorts of conflicting answers and spent money needlessly on parts that really I didn’t need. As I say I’ve spoken to people who have expertise in this particular vehicle and still have no answer, I am not a novice when it comes to mechanics and can tackle pretty much any job by myself, but this problem has not only stumped me but a friend who is a mechanic and the expert. I have spent hours going over and over in my head every possible scenario. I have checked and re checked and then checked again nothing adds up. Temperature sensor is sending fine and is new unit, distributor is all up together and timed properly I even fitted a new distributor to eliminate that, Coil is working fine, plugs are new, leads are new, Ecu appears to be functioning fine, Airflow meter ok, no air leaks either in pipe work or plenum, all earth points cleaned, fuel is being delivered properly, idle set, fuel pump ok. I have read article after article trying to see if I’ve missed something, for my own sanity I know have to find what is causing this even if I have to pull the car apart peace by peace bolt by bolt.

[SteveRK]

I feel your pain#! stick with it. Why not go back to basics as this problem is certainly not playing the game.

remove the thermostat - this will eliminate the 'when engine is hot' factor

even better attach a cold water hose to feed the radiator or other feed on the cooling system - whilst draining an equivalent amount of water such that cold water is constantly circulating the engine

disconnect as many sensors as possible so that the engine will still run and monitor the engine characteristics over time - not temperature (with thermostat removed)

[Ladge]

I feel your pain#! stick with it. Why not go back to basics as this problem is certainly not playing the game.

remove the thermostat - this will eliminate the 'when engine is hot' factor

even better attach a cold water hose to feed the radiator or other feed on the cooling system - whilst draining an equivalent amount of water such that cold water is constantly circulating the engine

disconnect as many sensors as possible so that the engine will still run and monitor the engine characteristics over time - not temperature (with thermostat removed)

Now that is something I hadn't thought of another angle, I could attach a water hose, remove the radiator plug yeah, I like your thinking thanks

[Ladge]

Kept her cold will tick over better but the engine still revs up and down , but because it’s cold it runs faster getting more fuel, so the rev up and down is still there. I admit defeat when I have time I may take it to a landrover dealer, if I don’t get fed up with seeing there and scrap it first.

[Ladge]

An update on the Vogue 3.5 EFI. I spent an enormous amount of time effort and money on this vehicle over the past two years; I have owned 7 previous Range Rovers so know my way around them, I’ve done a couple of diesel conversions, changed axels, welded endless body panels repaired chassis. I bought this particular Rangy as I say two years plus ago, she had been neglected but I could see there was still lots of life in her, so set about repairing and replacing. But what I hadn’t bargained for was the extremely poor EFI system what a completely unreliable system it is; I would have thought Landrover engineers learned the lesson after their tangle with (Mussolini’s revenge) the V.M loosely known as a diesel engine, but no they continue to flood the market with vehicles less than fit for the job leaving us the user to put right there mistakes. So not wishing to drone on and on listing the continuing faults rolled out on the production line at Landrover, I have decided to Part Company with my vogue and end my association with range rover EFI.

[SteveRK]

Sorry to hear but I understand your frustration - better to walk away from it rather than continually throw good time and money at it.

However, before you do it might be worth removing the screws that hold the throttle pot to the manifold and try rotating it anti-clockwise in increments to see what effect that has.

[ramon alban]

What the heck happened after this?

Guys I pulled the plug from the ECU and cleaned all the contacts pushed it home again, and the engine is running somewhere near what it should, well at least it stays running at a reasonable rpm now, not quite right but 98% there. I did pull two plugs as Ramon suggested they are clean, think I will get another ECU and fit as soon as weather breaks, then see how it runs.

Repeat, well at least it stays running at a reasonable rpm now,

If by fiddling with the ECU multiplug the problem virtually disappeared and it has since returned, my conclusion would be to revisit the same place again. Are you able to see any damaged contacts on the multiplug. Also they lose their springynees and can be tweaked/adjusted with a wooden kebab stick.

If I misunderstood the above quote, I apologise, but I cant see where it says the variable rpm was still a problem, then? So it must have returned - worth looking at that solution again, methinks.

[Ladge]

Ramon I thank you for all your technical advice, but with the EFI system full of flaws and possibilities, I have come to the conclusion Landrover EFI has a much higher fail possibility, in short it is a complete waste of my time, and I refuse to spend anymore of my time searching for a fault on a system that in its self is a complete fault, The best that can be done with the early EFI system is to add a gallon of petrol call some friends suitably clad in fire retardant clothing, add the match and dance around chanting Toyota your next.