Immobiliser Confusion?

[MrKev]

Hi all.

Apologies for dragging the topic up again, but I've not been able to find what I'm after.

I have a P reg Discovery 300tdi, with an occasional starting problem.

Sometimes I get a click but no cranking. Research in here and other forums seem to suggest that the 'spider' is the most likely cause for problem, but I don't have one - at least not as per BogMonster's post. I do have a green box in the passenger footwell, which the RAVE manual refers to as the 'spider'. I had a look at this, and the soldering all appears fine.

I've not had chance to check the starter connections so far, but the battery connections seem sound.

Anything else I should be looking at, any other relays or connections about the vehicle that are of a high probability for failing?

[cipx2]

Manual transmission or automatic?

What's the VIN # (you can skip the last 4 figures, replace with xxxx)?

[MrKev]

Manual - SALLJGMF7VA70xxxx

[MrKev]

Looked up VIN - took a few sites before one would identify it, ended up using one at clifton.nl. It came back with

SAL Manufacturer code: Land Rover

LJ Model: Discovery, 200 Series (1989-1994) or 300 Series (1994-1998)

G Wheel base: 100 inch

M Body type: 4-door station wagon (LWB)

F Engine type: 2.5 litre Tdi diesel, model 11L (200Tdi) or model 16L (300Tdi)

7 Steering and transmission: Right-hand drive (RHD), 5-speed manual (LT85, LT77, LT77S, R380 or other)

V Model year: 1997

A Assembly location: Solihull, UK

70XXXX Serial number

Looks like I've got a 97 model - I thought it was 96 on the V5! Will check when I get home. Sig updated accordingly

[cipx2]

It's a 97 model as the decoder said. 1997 300tdi manual 5 door models started from .....VA703237.

The green box should be the alarm ecu. The spider box should be black, it looks like in this picture - note the part number.

Normally, given the VIN, it should have a spider if it's a non EDC engine (it is a non EDC engine, isn't it?). Maybe it was already removed by a previous owner or workshop. Does it have the DDS on the injection pump?

Regardless of the above, you should check for +12V on the starter solenoid when you turn the key to start position. If you say the fault is intermitent might be a good idea to permanently wire a bulb in the cabin (or small 12V sounder etc) from the solenoid and check it every time you try to start the engine. If when it clicks and doesn't crank the bulb lights up then it's starter solenoid at fault. If "no crank" is also a "no light" then you need to start trace back the fault according the wiring diagram in a similar way. Might be the starter relay or the alarm ecu at fault.

Another thing is to find out what "clicks" when it doesn't crank. The starter relay (which is normal) or the starter solenoid?

If it's the starter solenoid clicking with no cranking then it's shot, presuming the battery and all the electrical connections, chassis and earth straps are in good order.

I would have been easier in the case of a permanent fault but I don't think you want to wait

[MrKev]

Hehe - yeah, I'm trying to get there before the permanent fault arrives, and given the current snow round here, the Disco is my 'Main' vehicle for a bit.

The centre fascia is currently only loosely held in place, as I had it out at the weekend to look for a spider. I had a fairly good look round in there, one of the previous owners had changed the radio so there's a fairly major cludge of crimps etc to convert the radio wiring, which doesn't help. Underneath the metal plate that the radio sits above, I see some bosses on the plastic moulding below - would this be where the spider should be bolted on?

I have thought about doing the bulb in cockpit idea, and I've been hoping for a chance when there's both daylight and no snow to crawl around on in order to do this. I think I need to get on with this next - check the wiring and earthing to the starter properly, and wire the lamp in if no problem spotted whilst I'm in there.

The clicking I hear sounds like something inside the vehicle, but quite a few things get turned off during cranking so not sure exactly what just yet, but at one time I thought it did also sound like the solenoid clicking too.

I have recently suffered from a poorly battery anyway, so I've just fitted a new one.

[cipx2]

Underneath the metal plate that the radio sits above, I see some bosses on the plastic moulding below - would this be where the spider should be bolted on?

Could be. Look at the 5th pic in BogMonster's thread and compare.

[MrKev]

Indeed, the bosses are empty, there was definately no spider installed. More significantly, despite trying, I failed to find a section of wiring loom with around 5 or 6 black wires terminating in a 10 pin connector, like the one that goes into the spider in the photo. I'd better look harder, perhaps it's tucked away somewhere.

[gripper]

when you say you get a click where is the click from? if it is from the starter solonoid then you can forget about spiders and assosiated wiring problems as there is power activating the solonoid,or try putting a bulb on the lead to the solonoid and turning the key to check for power.

if it powers up with the key then the fault lies either with the solonoid or the starter itself,could be a duff segment on the armature or burnt out solonoid either of which will require a replacement starter.

also check the leads to make sure you have good connections from the battery etc.

[maxtherotti]

being a 97 you prob have a ddis box instead of a spider

thats a box with 3 wires going to it on the back of the fuel pump

if so remove the box (in pieces after you have beaten it with a chisel ) and connect the centre wire direct to the shut off solenoid

thats the immobiliser gone but not sure if thats your problem

rob

[Ally V8]

DDS didnt come in till WA chassis - the 98 my,so if its manual it should have been fitted with a smart spider.Considering how old it is there is a strong chance its been removed and hopefully a decent job has been made of hardwiring the 3 loops of wire back in ALA the AMR4956 link lead - even that might still be there,tucked down the rh side of the heater box.

Think I'd be looking for power at the starter solenoid before diving behind the dash too much......

[MrKev]

I'm appreciating all this info. Many thanks to all who have responded so far.

I'll post an update when I have some more news. The dash is in loosely anyway at the moment, so whipping it out quickly isn't a problem, I've just not had a suitable moment to do anything, and the darn thing has behaved itself the last few days too. There, I've cursed it now!

Assuming it behaves itself, I'll try and wire a remote indicator lamp in if I get a chance, that way I'll be able to learn something when it next goes wrong.

Of course, now I've posted this, Sod's law says I'm going no-where tomorrow morning now!

[Redhand]

DDS didnt come in till WA chassis - the 98 my,so if its manual it should have been fitted with a smart spider.Considering how old it is there is a strong chance its been removed and hopefully a decent job has been made of hardwiring the 3 loops of wire back in ALA the AMR4956 link lead - even that might still be there,tucked down the rh side of the heater box.

Think I'd be looking for power at the starter solenoid before diving behind the dash too much......

That's funny because I've just stripped the centre dash out to fit a spider bypass to a 1997 300tdi 5 door manual and guess what. No spider?? Also it has a black box on the fuel pump with 3 wires going in to it Is this DDS???

[Ally V8]

That's funny because I've just stripped the centre dash out to fit a spider bypass to a 1997 300tdi 5 door manual and guess what. No spider?? Also it has a black box on the fuel pump with 3 wires going in to it Is this DDS???

So is it a VA or WA chassis car ? If it has the 3 wires to a black box on the pump its DDS.LR are not too clever at times when it comes to ETM's and their dates....

[maxtherotti]

mine is a 98 model year but my mates is a early 97 with ddis

rob

[Redhand]

So is it a VA or WA chassis car ? If it has the 3 wires to a black box on the pump its DDS.LR are not too clever at times when it comes to ETM's and their dates....

It's VA but definitely no spider and no sign of one anyway. So apart from paying £100+ to the stealers Is there a way to disable the immobiliser.

[Redhand]

So is it a VA or WA chassis car ? If it has the 3 wires to a black box on the pump its DDS.LR are not too clever at times when it comes to ETM's and their dates....

It's VA but definitely no spider and no sign of one anyway. So apart from paying £100+ to the stealers Is there a way to disable the immobiliser.

[Ally V8]

It's VA but definitely no spider and no sign of one anyway. So apart from paying £100+ to the stealers Is there a way to disable the immobiliser.

Thats odd - but then it is a Land Rover ! If its got the DDS block on the pump all you need to do is either use stud extractors to remove the 2 shear bolts that hold it on.Or (As some not very careful garages do) carefully smash the block off to reveal the actual stop solenoid below.

Then its a case of making a little link lead up to go onto the solenoid from the 1 of the 3 wires that comes live when you key on.If you PM me the Vin I should be able to tell you what should be on the car.

[cipx2]

According to the parts catalog, the DDS is fitted to VINs starting VA5xxxxx and VA7xxxxx, which are both 97 MY, 3 door and 5 door 300tdis respectively.

[john01473]

According to the parts catalog, the DDS is fitted to VINs starting VA5xxxxx and VA7xxxxx, which are both 97 MY, 3 door and 5 door 300tdis respectively.

Hi hope this does not add to the confusion.

I have a 300 tdi - 3-door manual 1994. No spider – no remote.

When I first got my Disco I had similar problems with the immobiliser. I mention what I am about to as an idea of something else to look at.

– The clicking comes from a solenoid behind the panel in the front passengers foot well.

– If I open the passenger door first and someone pulls up the button the engine will not start. I have to operate the drivers lock to lock and un lock then the engine will start.

The previous owner said he often had the immobiliser kick in and prevent the engine from starting. He used to open the driver’s door, dive in and start as quickly as possible.

I took the truck to my local garage who had a real mechanic – I asked him to bypass the immobiliser – well the bas”!rd truck would not start and he had a crack at getting is started. He rang me 2 hours later and said – all done – come and collect it. The real problem turned out to be a really dodgy connection on the starter motor – he cleaned it all and 2 years later all is still fine – he did not bypass the immobiliser as he said it was working properly.

I still have the problem if the passenger door is opened then the drivers door from inside the vehicle – this is due to a fault with old door lock and solenoid which I hope to cure with a new lock and solenoid this year. Hope this is of help.

Cheers

Big John