tonycan Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Hi, this is a continuation to my flooded Puma engine. I replaced security module and instrument pack but did not replace ECU because according to dealership the ECU was sealed. Service cranked the engine and the engine would TURN THREE TIMES but would not fire-up. They thought that maybe engine was immobilized so they set the engine to NAS specs. The engine would then crank CONTINUOUSLY but still would not fire-up. They can't figure out why the engine will not fire-up. They've connected the engine ECU to their diagnostic computer but according to them NO FAULT is found. I'm thinking the ECU might have been affected after being submerged for 12 hours even if it seems sealed. I've asked them to borrow a 10as security module, an instrument pack and an engine ECU from another unit and install in my Puma to see if the problem is ECU related. I'd like to ask if anyone can offer any advise regarding my Puma's refusal to start. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Replacing the ECU would be an obvious first step - I don't believe they are that well sealed I have seen faulty injectors cause a non start like this, I don't really understand why but tell them to check the fuel pressure when cranking and see what it is doing, there is a pressure check routine on IDS. Faulty injectors can cause a low rail pressure (too much leakoff I think) which means it will not start. May be caused by water in the fuel I guess. Also check the doodah on the back of the high pressure fuel pump which controls the rail pressure, this is fairly easy to swap out of another vehicle but F expensive to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Assumeing the engine has mechanical integrity, timed up/compression etc then as Bog Monster says, fuel pressure check. If it has that, then are the injectors opening? If they are is fuel getting through the injectors to the cylinders? Infact just look at the exhaust when you spin it over, any white smoke? If yes then fuel is reaching the cylinders, if not then it isn't. All fairly basic checks. I also doubt the ecu would survive that much of a dunking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Thank you both. I also doubt that the ecu would have made it but I can't understand there's no fault code given. Thank you for the suggestions. I will let the dealership know come monday. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 There may not be any fault codes because either the fault is not in a monitored system or just because the ecu itself is faulty. Alternatively, if say the injectors were mechanicly siezed (because of water ingress) but electricly active, then the ecu would see the correct return voltage from each injectors firing signal, (this is what it uses to determine if a fault is present in each circuit/component). From this it would register no fault, yet the engine wouldn't run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 Hello, I just spoke to my service adviser from the local LR dealer and mentioned your suggestions. They swapped my injector with another injector and the pressure with both injectors was the same basically ruling out the injector as a problem. When they crank the engine there is white smoke coming out of the exhaust which means that fuel is reaching the cylinders. They hare arranging for an instrument pack, security module and ECU swap today. Hope it starts. Will let you guys know. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Need to swap all four injectors as a set to have any meaningful improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 Hi, just an update. They took out ECU, instrument pack and security module of demo unit to swap onto my puma, engine still did not start. As a thought (in order to check they're ECU programming of my ECU) they decided to swap my set onto the demo unit and the demo unit started. (good news) I guess this means that my ECU even after being submerged for 12 hours most likely did not get damaged. They say the problem may be in the crank sensor. According to them they have coordinated with LR tech support in the UK but it seems the UK is confused as to how to diagnose the problem. DO you guys think that I should try swapping all 4 injectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 hi i agree with bogmonster all four injectors need to be changed and drain the rail incase there is any water in there. If that fails ask them to swap the crank sensor from the demo vehicle. Does anyone know if the puma engine uses a separate cam/ fuel pump position sensor? if so try changing that What they also should be able to do is look at the live values from the sensors when they crank the engine like rail pressure, engine speed etc it should be fairly obvious if one reading is way off what would be expected leading to incorrect amounts of fuel being injected possibly at the wrong time. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 Hi, sorry to say but still no luck firing-up my puma. According to service they checked all engine sensors and all are fine except for a faulty crank position sensor. They swapped a crank position sensor from their demo unit but still could not get a pulse from the injectors. They would've brought down dash to check all wires one by one and all relays and fuses. Will update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 hi what do you mean by "could not get a pulse from the injectors"? is it that they think the injectors aren't being opened, in a previous post you said that it was producing white smoke whilst cranking which means at least some injectors are firing but maybe not at the right time. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 Hi Matt, I was just quoting the service guy. I was wondering about that too. He also did mention there was white smoke. I'll have to have a talk with him this morning. I'll update you later. Thanks for the help. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 Just spoke to service guy. There is white smoke when cranking the engine but the problem is the current reaching the injectors is intermittent. They applied a tester to the connector leading to the injectors and found that the current is not constant leading them to believe that there there must be corrosion deep in the wire harness of a loose wire. They still have to check the wires one by one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 hi sounds like they're on the right track now, i would have thought for the time it would take them fitting a new engine loom would be easier depending on parts availability i assume the insurance is paying. One thing i have had trouble with in the past is the pins in multi plugs (ECU) getting pushed back leading to no or intermittent contact, worst i had was a pin on the diagnostics wire in a tractor, meant the laptop was useless however 2 days and a multimeter found it. All i wanted to do was a 10 minute calibration. HTH matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 Thanks for the advise Matt, I have the same problem on my TD5. There is a loose connection that prevents the fuel pump and glow plug from getting current sometimes and that may be the problem. I ordered a new ECU but I'm also afraid that the pins in the connector might be the problem. I haven't figured out how to expose the pins but I'll give it a try today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 Hi Matt, Thanks for the tip about the connector leads. Although I haven't gotten my puma to start I was able to get my TD5 to start. I went to my TD5's ECU connector and folded a small piece of fine sandpaper and inserted it into each connector. Although I couldn't really sand thoroughly I was able to get the insides sanded a bit. I then crimped ever so slightly each connector and made sure they were all fully extended before inserting the connector. Did this to both the red and black ECU connectors. Started the engine and it fire! Test drove it around and it didn't falter. Will continue to drive it today. Keeping my fingers crossed. Hopefully I won't need the new ECU I ordered. I'll have a spare one then, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycan Posted February 3, 2010 Author Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thank you to everyone for all the help and advise during my defenders' darkest hours. TD5 up and running and yesterday the shop informed me that my PUMA fired up after they cleaned all contacts. Water really dulls the electrical connections. It took 4 months but now its time to bring the Defenders up to speed. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 good to hear glad its finally fixed matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okan Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 (edited) I had the same problem. Citroën Relay 2.2 puma engine 2011.Everything was pointing out to BCM. I bought and identical one and cloned it. Still didn't work. Cranking but not firing. Changed cam positioning sensor and all working fine now. Hope this helps. Okan. Edited March 9, 2021 by Okan Addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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