Dave64

Hi All, Although having posted the odd topic on these forums, must admit to not being all that well up on the differing model options. Also freely admit that Google (or all search engines for that matter) and I,are not on best of terms. I HATE with a passion everytime I try to do research that I am faced with what seems like unending pages of advertisements or totally unrelated B.S! O.K. having vented my spleen on that particular subject, I'm hoping someone or other can give me a bit of a heads up as far as identifying particular models released (or assembled)in Australia. I'm taking a W.A.G here and pinning the years down between say 1990 and 2000. Looking for some sort of project here, model would (ideally) have been fitted with the 2.5TDI Landrover engine, manual transmission, cab chassis sort of thing. Typical cockies (farmers) vehicle. Swags of earlier models abounded here, either fitted with metal or wooden tray backs. Did the Oz market cater for such an animal? What would they have been designated? I'm talking about the bare bones version, as I said, cockies jigger, basic without any frills, except maybe a heater/demister. The longer the wheelbase the better. Someone or other tells me that there were a few running around but with an earlier 4 speed box, instead of the 5 speed O/D box. Anyone give me a chop out here? If there were such a beast, what type of diffs would they have run? I'd imagine they would have to be reasonably heavy to suit farming. If anyone can direct me, or throw in any advice, would be appreciated. I may be entirely wrong here, but I have a feeling that with the resurgence of popularity of the LR over here, they went pretty upmarket and got away entirely from the models I'm thinking of. Probably wouldn't have hurt to add what would have been an alternative LWB tray LR model suitable for repowering with a spare 2.5 TDI 200 engine? Thanks, Dave64

Hangover, I can actually sit on my front verandah and watch the dust clouds rolling off the top of the Pyrenees! Probably hasn't rained since you were here in Oct, not any decent rain anyway. Still haven't made my mind up what I'm going to do with the engine, couple of options, little 2WD U.S. Postal Jeep looks likely, but also have a D5N Dodge about the same weight as a Discovery and lots more room under the bonnet. Engine was given to me by a mate and to this stage the only coin I have spent on it is for about a dozen missing bolts and the cost of having the adapter plate made up to fit the NP435 box, a clutch and pressure plate. So far! BTW, have the original 5 speed transmission, clutch, bellhousing and linkages here, but no transfer case. If anyone is interested, make me an offer and I'll ring my mate and run it by him. Had it on Gumtree for $100. Cheers, Dave

Guys! First up, an apology! Spoke to the bloke who gave me this engine today, he assures me that you blokes are correct, it is the Discovery 1. So, egg on face, I should have made better enquiries before posting! Now we have established what engine and more importantly, what vehicle the engine belongs to, I will swallow my pride and forge ahead! BTW, the bloke I spoke to is also going to see if he can repossess the original intercooler, so hopefully I can mount that in the chassis as well. As far as an oil cooler goes, plenty of aftermarket ones around that should be able to be adapted. The air con compressor has gone, don't need it anyway, likewise the power steering pump, will remove that and jerry rig an old idler pulley of some description, got a few here. Again, thanks for all your input! Cheers, Dave64

Think that the reply has gone to next page! Dave 64

Apologies for doubling up! Still trying to get this right. This post was supposed to go into 2.5 TDI startup after sitting around. Dave64

Thanks All, will attempt to post a few snaps. Dave64

Thanks All, Hopefully this will give a bit better idea easy once shown!

Hmm................... this looks upside down to mine. So going by your earlier posting, that would make mine a Defender engine? Either way, I take it that all the plumbing, (oil cooler, power steering, vacuum line) would be the same or similar? I do know that the engine originally had an air con pump on it as although it (air con) didn't come with the engine, there was a serpentine belt plus a few odd pulleys, but no jockey pulley but you can see where it was originally bolted to the injector pump housing. Did you read my query on starting and running the engine (under no load-high idle) just to check for leaks etc? Turbo hooked up but NO intercooler? Just wondered what your take on that was? Cheers, Dave64

Hangover, If I can work out how to add a photo, I could post it on here. I am not in any sort of facebook or photobucket thingo, have enough trouble writing emails! I am pretty sure the bloke who gave me the engine was calling it a RANGE ROVER station wagon, 5 door. Maybe he doesn't know what he's got either? Has had a few of them, but this was the only one with the diesel engine, his other couple are V8 petrol. Either way, the turbo is HIGHER than the alternator, (both right hand side looking AT the engine from the front, so to me, that means the NEAR or PASSENGER side) when in the vehicle, so if you say it's a Defender, than maybe that's what it is.Unless of course it was some sort of retrofit? Always possible, I've seen some strange things in my time. I don't have any sort of manual other than a cupla pages of engine wiring diagrams, and there a also a few things I'm not sure of. It has what looks to be a line from the vacuum pump which I would say goes to the brake booster, there are two lines from the oil filter housing which I would say go to the bottom of the radiator (or a separate oil cooler?), the air con pump was taken off (don't need it), below the alternator is the power steering pump which also doubles as the fan belt tensioner. It has a temperature sender in the SIDE of the thermostat housing, but on top of the same housing is a plug with two male contacts on it which is for either some sort of idiot light OR perhaps for a thermo fan switch? Did they run both the viscuous fan clutch as well as thermo fans? Have a radiator shroud? I have found out that most of the bolts, nuts, pipe fittings, bungs etc are nearly all metric, if that means anything. I have already adapted an NP445 4 speed to it, seems to have all gone together well. If you can spare five minutes to answer my queries, it would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave64

Thanks again for valuable input. Dave64

Thanks for your views, Guys! Dave64

Thanks for that, Old Hand. Spoke to the bloke who gave me the engine this morning, reckons he can lay his hands on the original intercooler, or another one he knows is OK. At this stage I only want to get it ticking over to do some basic tests , e.g. oil pressures etc. If I only idle the motor, no load, for a few minutes to get the oil circulating,without revving the guts out of it, should be OK for at least a few minutes? Only really want to check for leaks etc at this stage, won't be driven anywhere. Cheers, Dave64

Thanks, Guys! Much appreciated. As I said, I don't have any workshop manuals on this engine, so the only electrics I have to worry about is the actual fuel shot off solenoid? Sounds pretty straightforward. Got a couple of decent 12 Volt truck batteries about, so once I get it bolted into the chassis, can crank her over will fuel shut-off. There was one extra query, that is it came out of a 1993 Rangie and was set up with an intercooler which I don't have. I have heard that they tick over quite well with just the turbo, no intercooler. Am I really going to lose all that much in grunt by keeping it as a turbo/NON intercooled ? I can always rig up an intercooler at some later stage, just want to get it running at this stage. Has a transmission (NP435) bolted to it so I can secure it in the chassis. Thanks again, Dave64

Hi All, Have a 1993 2.5 TDI 200 engine getting close to firing up after sitting for about 12 months, Always been covered in the shed, turns over quite easily by hand. I haven't had much to do with these later engines, used to the older style diesels where you crack a bung somewhere on the injector pump, pump like hell with the lift pump until the air is out of the system and then 'crack' an injector line. Most times it has been enough to get them started. These engines have any funny little tricks to (starting) them? It is NOT going back into a R/Rover but another project, so have no wiring, no diagrams, no book (manual) on it at all. I realise that I will also have to probably 'prime' the turbo with oil before starting, can always jerry rig something there. This engine came out of a 1993 R/Rover station wagon, had the 5 speed O/D box behind it. Was originally intercooled, but just to get it going I'm going to route an air intake line direct into the manifold. Have heard that they do tick over quite nicely in UN-intercooled guise, although down a bit on gross output. Any suggestions? Tips? Things I should be wary of? It will be bolted into a chassis of sorts, so won't be able to run away anywhere. What would be handy is if someone could possibly post a page or two on the priming of the fuel system, may make it a bit easier. Thanks, Dave64

Carloz, Don't sweat about "hijacking" my post! I am now a bit interested in your own jigger. If your rebuild is going to take some time, can I suggest that you take progressive photo's? I either use a small pocket camera (or the iPhone and snap away as each component is assembled). When you get to my age, it's the only way I can remember the correct order things go back together! If you don't wish to post photo's here, you can always send me a personal message. Best of luck with the rebuild, particularly interested to see just how your upgrade transmission adapts to an early girl engine. Maybe you could send a few details about your own Dodge? Cheers for now, Dave

OK, Carloz, try these for size, and remember I am taking the measurements from MY NP445, or as it is sometimes called, NP4350. Whether it differs from the NP435 close ratio, I can't tell. Maybe you can help me with some measurements (Dodge version)? - I am looking for the mounting holes to the bellhousing (in my bellhousing it seems to be right: Horizontal two holes above the inputshaft, 9" from eachother and 2 just under the inputshaft, seems to be 8 3/4" from eachother. Vertical left side 2 1/2" and right side 3" from eachother) Taken with a digital vernier, I came up with these:- Top two holes=8+9/16". Bottom two holes 8 +3/4". Vertical LEFT side=2.958" Vertical RIGHT side= 2.903" .ALL MEASUREMENTS TAKEN WITH VERNIER TO CENTRES OF HOLES! You'll have to convert decimal to fractions. - the outside diameter of the bearingretainer which lines up the box with the crankshaft (I expect it to be 5,125") CORRECT! 5.125" - Is it possible to machine down to 4,75"? (the actual diameter in my Mopar Flathead 6, 230ci). You may be better off either machining a "collar" to press fit OVER the smaller bearing retainer, or size your retainer down FROM 5.125 TO 4.75. You would have to check whether you would still have enough "Meat" around the retainer so as it won't leak, but still retain it's strength. - Length&diameter of clutch release guide. :- Sleeve from face of bearing retainer to end of guide (sleeve)is 3.087" X 1.255 O.D. X 1.0255" I.D. - Length of splined part of inputshaft:- 1.650" - Length & diameter of pilot tip:- 2.150" X 0.750" - Total length of Input shaft to mounting fase (I think it is 8 3/8" for NP435? And it is 8" for my Dodge WC one):- Again, pretty close, 8+9/16" * see below - Length of box NP435 std box, face to face of case :- 10 +13/16" MY NP445 (NP4350) :- 13.00" ** see note below - Distance between mounting face to the hart of drive shaft yoke on MY unit, :- 5 +1/16" *** see note below Note * You say 8 3/8", mine is 8 9/16" difference of 3/16". HOWEVER, there are as previously stated, quite a few variations when it comes to both input and output shafts, even on Dodge. Early Dodge used 10 spline inch and a sixteenth coarse spline depending on size of engine and truck fitted to, normally pick then by the parking brake drum on rear of gearbox, have been a few variations though. Everything I have here has the LATER one inch diameter X 23 spline common Chrysler/Dodge for smaller trucks! Note ** I cannot with any honesty tell you if the early GM/Dodge NP435A gearcase is the same as other NP435's. I have always thought that the extra length in the case was to accommodate the extra syncro set up, plus the modified input bearing from flat roller to tapered roller and throw in the fact that they reworked the location and position of reverse gear inside the box itself, BUT had retained exactly the same shift pattern. Note *** Again, a few variations when it comes to your output shaft measurements. I have two here have identical lengths, yet one has the speedo drive on one side, the other box has it on the other side. Also have differing output bearings and seals in the actual housings, yet use the same yoke. Can't tell you why. Hope all this waffle is of some use to you. Personally, having two NP boxes side by side, I would opt for the close ratio all-synchro every time, UNLESS I were switching to a very low (higher road speed) diff. As both trucks have reasonable existing gearing, (4.10 on the tray truck with 7.50 X 16 tyres) and the Postal has 3.73 ratio on roughly the same overall diameter tyres (31 X 10.5 X 15") with NO more body weight than the WW2 Jeeps, For me I can't see it being an issue. If I can be of any more help, don't hesitate to drop a line. BTW, two questions, are you running a transfer case? If so, I am surmising it is the island or divorced style, if so you will possibly have to shorten the jack shaft between the main gearbox and the transfer case because of the extra length (2 3/16"). If like mine a simple 2WD, it won't worry you, just shorten the main tailshaft. The other query, roughly what size is your jigger? Certainly the all-synchro option is highly desirable for driveability, you obviously have nutted out your tyre sizes as well as final drive (diff) ratios. Cheers for now, Dave

Carloz, I too had a bit of trouble with the close ratio version of the NP435A. My close ratio box has the tag NP445 on the case, but all my paperwork will say that it's a NP435 and they are interchangeable. A few blokes on the forums in the states seem to be at odds with this. I can tell you that of both the boxes I have here (3 actually, 2 in pieces) they all accept the same bellhousing patterns and input shaft retainers. The bellhousing I have is the cast 318 version out of a campervan, I will have to have a fossick around out in the garage loft and take a few measurements, again I can tell you that the 'ears' on my Dodge version NP435 are the same as the NP445, but without confusing the issue, I used the Ford version bell as it suited my application better, simply redrilled the holes on the lower two 'ears' Early boxes may not have these ears, but if you are simply swapping Dodge to Dodge, shouldn't be an issue. I'll copy your measurements down on paper and get the Dodge bell out and measure it, hopefully later today. I have no idea which engine/bell you are currently running, flathead six(?), but Chrysler did confuse the issue a bit with their NP435's, I have an early NP435 bell at a mates place, from behind a slant six 225 has one style, have another sitting in an Oz built D5N 200 behind the 245 Hemi HD has another style, one from behind the 318 different again. Probably going to have to work off those measurements you have posted. As to availability of earlier NP435A's in the G.M. version, I hunted around for quite some time, posted on several GM as well as Dodge sites. Couldn't locate one. Did find a few Dodge versions, but getting a bit hard to get. I had to import mine from the states. Leave it with me and I'll see what I can come up with in relation to your measurements. Sorry, read your post again, 230 flathead! Can answer a couple of questions off the top of my head, if you are going UP in bearing retainer size, you can either have the index hole machined out, OR, you can do what I did and have the outer diameter of the input shaft REDUCED. We are only talking a very small amount. I have had the pilot tip on one shaft shortened, again if it's only a small amount, you have plenty to play with. All these ones I have here are the later hydraulic throwout bearing type, again, if you have to shorten/lengthen the actual sleeve that the carrier slides on, no great drama, I had mine done. Any good lathe man can turn one up. Thought about your spigot shaft bush/bearing? Again, a lathe can turn one up out of sintered bronze. Just one little thing to watch for Carloz, Dodge (Chrysler) used these NP435's across a very large range of models and also for nearly thirty years in many slight variations. Some input shafts ran rollers, some had tapered rollers and I have heard, but not seen a version with needle rollers.There are several different length/spline count/ shaft diameters on the input side. Also on the back of the box again, several differing lengths/splines, not to mentionthe difference between 2WD and 4WD versions with and without the handbrake drum set up, but that's an easy one to work around. Cheers, Dave

NP420?? Man, that's gotta be an early girl, I thought they went the way of button-up boots! Have to be pre-1960? 435's first came out early to mid sixties, did they not? Dave

Hi Men! Just add my two bobs worth to the forum. Have assembled the re-machined/resplined input shaft, have bloke on standby in new year to cut new matching input shaft/countershaft main drive gears. He reckons it's a feasible exercise, and he's a gearcutter by trade. Have been following the posts, (both here and a few other forums) about the cutting/welding of shafts, especially transmission input shafts. Personally, I wouldn't have a bar of it after seeing what is involved in machining up a new shaft from scratch! Yes, have seen it done out in the paddock with shafts on tractor PTO's and similar, also seen one let go luckily at only low RPM, still twisted like a banana, again luckily no one too close to it. Seen quite a few 'bodgie' adaptations (done a few myself) over too many years to count. Very few of them I could say were resounding successes. No doubt, as I have said in a companion posting, someone will have experiences of debogging D9 dozers or something similar with welded/fabricated home made adaptations. I wouldn't like to be on the other end of them! All the best for the silly season, Cheers, Dave64

Just a bit of an update re that cobbling of 2.5L TDI 200 engine to the NP gear box. I ended up using the NP445 version (close ratio, all_synchro) instead of the standard NP435, although the Ford bellhousing has been machined to accept either the Ford OR Dodge, even Inter. variations. Pretty straightforward, no great unexpected dramatics. Had the old 5 speed R/Rover manual box for sale for a while now, only asked $50 for it, never even got any enquiries. Probably understandable, didn't have the transfer case with it. I don't know Jack about these transmissions, but to my eye, they look pretty light duty, wouldn't like to be dumping too much torque into them. Put me in mind of when Jeep got away from heavy duty light truck transmissions and started putting tinkle alloy car boxes in them. I do stand to be corrected on the ability of those R/Rover transmissions, no doubt someone will have a story of how they pulled a D9 out of a bog with one! Cheers, and all the best for the silly season, Dave64

Picked up the assembled unit yesterday, dropped it off today along with a bare NP435 case to have the index hole bored out to accept the new housing. Once that's done, spear it around to the gear cutters so he can take some measurements and in the new year once he clears a bit of a backlog of work, will have a go at cutting a new matched pair of input gears, can do either helical or straight cut. Dave64

Meant to add, Jeff McNamara put me onto another bloke just around the corner from him, who specialises in only transmissions. Took me around to his place, like Aladdin's cave! Just about every known type, style of manual automotive transmission ever made has been worked on over the years. Half of the makes, I had never even heard of! This bloke can rebuild just about anything, if you have the bread! You name it, this guy and/or his father have worked on it at one stage or another! Does primarily rally/hill-climb/straight out racing transmissions, exports all over the globe, only trouble has such a backlog of work that it takes some time to book stuff in. Showed me a couple of countershafts that had been literally chewed to pieces! He can either replace the gears, YES, even the gears on a countershaft, alter the ratios, even supply straight cut teeth from scratch. Would possibly be one of the very few, maybe THE only one in Australia, who handles Laycock d'Normanville overdrive transmissions, has even made up the planetary gearsets for them. I reckon I had seen some blokes turn up pretty amazing things on lathes and milling machines, this bloke takes the award! Dave64

Just a bit of an update re re-machining of input shafts. took the whole shebang down to McNamara Diffs yesterday. Whilst down there, Jeff put the Inter shaft in a lathe, gave it a bit of a touch-up to get it running true, marked it to length then cut through it with an ultra-thin angle grinder disc. Once initial hard surface removed, cutting was easy with ceramic lathe tool bit Back into the lathe to turn to correct diameter for bearing to press onto. Had to be slightly larger than the spline so as to assemble. Awaiting the bearing cup and cone at the moment, once he has that will go ahead and cut the spline and yoke securing thread to common Dana 44 diff size and spline count after treating same for hardness. Add a crush tube and an oil slinger, bolt whole shooting match together. Transmission case awaiting dismantling to bore out original Dodge/Ford/International (have one of each) input shaft bearing retainer housing to accept larger Dana 20 bearing housing. Cheers, Dave64

Thanks, Hoggy, Spoke to the man himself, now that the housing has arrived, I'll bag the whole shooting match up (shaft, housing, bearings yokes, seals etc) and take it down and dump it on his counter! I chased around half a dozen firms trying to get this looked at, seems to be a certain reluctance to take on jobs of this sort. Don't know if it is simply that blokes aren't being schooled anymore, or if they find it easier to pull one off the shelf! I can remember thirty-forty years ago, you could go into any Repco shop and buy enough parts to recondition an engine! And they used to also do the machining. Sadly now, they are little more than a glamourised supermarket, and if it's not on their computer, forget it! I got only ONE straight answer, and that was from the last bloke approached. We must have been both of the same mind, for he said, "anything can be done, if you think about it long enough". One other bloke said he wouldn't touch it for the simple reason that the shaft I want machined is getting hard to get and if anything went wrong (like my measurements were out), he didn't want to be responsible for stuffing it up! I wonder what my old boss (ex merchant marine engineer during WW2 would have said to him)? He often told me about how they had run a shaft bearing and had to cut up canvas haversacks to pack it out and keep moving. The alternative you wouldn't even want to contemplate, getting sunk by submarine. And he was a great one for modifying, adapting etc. Cheers, Dave64

Jack Macnamara Diffs of Dandenong, Vic, is willing to have a look at shortening and replining the IH input shaft. Thanks for your help, Guys. Dave64