ramon alban

Hello gelf, From your limited description of the system, IF its a flapper - its running on from the fuel supplied by the cold start injector but when cranking stops so the engine stops because the connection from coil negative to pin 1 of ecu via a 6800 ohm trigger resistor is missing. check the temporary cct digram here http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/.../Circuit01.html more info on the trigger resistor and its function, here: http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/.../Trigger01.html If its NOT a flapper, I'll go directly to jail and not collect 200 quid.

Hello Cookies, Your Efi system is overfueling so you have to test all the components and wiring connectors that could cause that. Coolant temp sensor, throttle position sensor, Fuel pressure regulator, weeping injectors, malajusted AFM and broken ECU. If this thing came on suddenly then bear in mind that the vast majority of ancient Rover faults are due to air leaks into the plenum and wiring faults. Overfuelling is not generally caused by air leaks so concentrate on testing for connection problems and mentioned component faults before buying loads of unneeded spares for undiagnosed problems. Althought NOT written for your system you may find some useful component/wiring testing assistance here: http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/...mponents01.html and elsewhere on the same site. Alternatively I believe there is a general RR document called RAVE which may assist. Ramon www.vintagemodelairplane.com

Hello Des, I think the problem is screen resolution. i'm assuming you have a version of internet explorer From what you said you appear to have read the Plenum PDF but if not i have mailed it to you along wth a another fuller test program pdf and one on exhaust systems just for interest.. To check your resolution right click on your desktop, click properties, click the settings tab and note the existing resolution. then adjust the slider to a different setting and ok out to try the jumbled pages again. if no luck and it mucks things up reset it to the original you may need to reset internet explorer or you may have a system bug, There are over 180 pdfs on the site so it would be impossible to email the whole set, but if you still cannot access the archive try looking at the site on another computer - friend/work whatever - and see if it behaves there. If it does and you eyeball a few PDF you need then I will forward them, but the best route would be to see if you can fix the bug. Ramon www.vintagemodelairplane.com ps I just interrogated my site stats and it appears you are using firefox 3 0.4, with a resolution of 1024 x 768, that should be ok but I am not at all familiar with how ff works but I have not received any comments. i will try to access the wobbly page with my version of ff and see what happens.

Hello Fleet, As far as I know the site is not misbehaving and I've had no similar reports so it is probably your browser or Adobe reader settings. Are you having problems with the HTML page or opening the PDF? If its the PDF I can send it to you by email or likewise on .doc format for MS Office Let me know your Email address thro the Contact Me page on my website or by PM. I'll get it to you what ever it takes.

Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs. All the diagnosis was directed towards it being a fuel problem because someone said the sparks were OK except the footnote from Steve who advised "Otherwise it might be a weak spark which could be any number of ignition components and or associated wiring." And the lesson today is: Never trust the original diagnosis and always read the footnotes. Well done anyway - job done.

Roger Threesheds' very informative post contained something that you may have missed. Rogue Air Leaks into the plenum make it impossible for the ECU to run the engine other than at startup because it cannot control the overall mixture. If there is an airleak then no matter how many components have previously been replaced the cost will have been in vain. Such checks often need to go beyond beyond normal physical inspection and on my much earlier flapper system there is a set procedure which you may be able to adapt. You can see that process in the PDF available from here http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/...l/Plenum01.html

Hello Thomas, The majority of all RV8 Efi probs are due to Air Leaks into the plenum chamber and electrical connection/wiring problems in that order - followed by any number of component faults. Because you have sparks and there is obviously fuel and the engine tries but fails to run then it is clearly a mixture problem, but it is not running rich because the plugs are OK and there is no smell of fuel. Therefor iit is a fair bet you have an air leak, possibly around the air intake hose or at one of a dozen other places around the plenum. This problem can be tested for using a structured program as defined here: http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/...l/Plenum01.html Sure it not for your exact RV8 system but it can easily be adapted. Next, look for electrical connection probs around the wiring loom. You will find some good advice how to eliminate them here: http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pages/...s/Wiring01.html just adapt it for your system. If neither of these ideas solve the problem I would then move on to component testing.

Bob, I asked you the following: if your engine starts ok and only misses when it warms up it could be the mixture is staying too rich due to mixture control or choke problems. Check the spark plugs for signs of over fuelling. I see you changed plugs, but what was their condition regarding overfueling, wettish, sooty or normal? An answer would be helpful before moving to the next stage. You have clearly got sparks otherwise iit could not run at all and the sparks can get affected by heat in the coil/amplifier, but its less likely for their performance to simply deteriorate in the repetitive pattern you describe, and more likely an ignition problem stops the engine dead, even when the fault is intermittent. However, if changing ign components does not solve it, going back to your original post. and add to that changes the complexion of the problem. When cold with a rich mixture or bad timing the engine may start and run OK without load but as it warms up the correct timing is also required for it to perform under load. Suggest you also check the ignition timing at idle, somewhere in the region of 2 - 4 deg BTDC if you are using low/med octane unleaded fuel, would be a good place to be. When you have eliminated the possibility of overfuelling and ignition, attention may have to go towards the camshaft being worn. I've heard that some lobe wear can often emulate other more common problems. Keep the symptoms coming!

Hello Martin, If your rear windscreen is also used as the radio aerial then there is a loose signal or shielding connection to the local amplifier thereabouts, or one of the local earths is corroded. If the radio aerial is not connected via the rear screen then there is some interferance being picked up from elsewhere in the car that is not being suppressed. Perhaps there is a local RF suppression condenser disconnected. Check the integity of all local wiring.

Hello Doc, It certainly sounds like an ign switch problem already mentioned, which sorta makes the flooded drive home a coincidence - weird. Flood the ign switch with WD40 to see if it improves the internal contacts, if so inject it with vaseline for a longer term cure. If not, what could the H2O have affected that also extinguishes the dashboard lights? Well, possibly the alternator regulator or rectifier electronic bits inside the unit itself got damaged - hence the temporary charging/battery light coming on during the monsoon. Then why did it go out? - well tha bulb might have failed and as the lamp is also part of the alternator excitation circuit you may have a complete charging circuit failure.. That drags the battery down and inhibits reliable starting. There is no logic to this guess - just an association of symptoms. An auto electrician called in to test for the above, may be a lot cheaper than a service agent, what, what?

Hello Bob, i'm not a carb person but if your engine starts ok and only misses when it warms up it could be the mixture is staying too rich due to mixture control or choke problems.Check the spark plugs for signs of over fuelling If they are normal then go to the ignition system and clean all the parts inside and out with WD40 and dry everything off with a dry cloth. This will eliminate condensation and grime and hopefully any HT tracking. If that does not work check the rotor arm and dizzy cap for tracking and substitute for known good'ns if poss. After that its the leads and plugs and after that the dizzy innards and coil + amplifier if there is one. Come back with results thus far.

No doubt about that then Deano, As a special thanks I offer this image of my lump that might transplant very nicely into any LR4X4. Might have to stay out of the mud tho', Thanks, Ramon.

The condenser was the component under review. Its a separate component mounted on the coil bracket, when the amplifier is fitted on the side of the dizzy. Silly, troublesome little thing - always overlooked - but beautiful none the less, for what it does so elegantly - just like Cinderella. Now these wire colours? Couldn't find them on Rave or similar ccts. On this image (which needs a click) http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?act=atta...st&id=16812 you can see a single coil of signal cable plugged into the side of the module with an earth tag and connector at one end and a connector at the other end that plugs into the dizzy. The wires look Blue and Red, but are they that in reality? Or do they have added stripes like Blue/White and Red/Black? Click the link to see the image. Someone may have one of these cables on their car to compare? Ramon

Hello Fridge Freezer, I hope not, because by understanding the stresses that may be thereabouts will give me a clue as to why this component gets overlooked so frequently in the diagnosis of Rover/RR/LR (electronic) ignition faults. Indeed, I dont recall seeing it earmarked that way on the various forums I visit, outside the context of "Points And Condenser" system which is quite weird really because they do have a propensity to fall over. Wire colours I need to complete my representative cct diag of the 1982-86 system and hopefully the final product (article) will fit nicely into the Rover V8 Efi scheme of things on my website. I did read the rules and I truly hope that your observation does not mean it is too "OT" for the LR4X4? Ramon

Thanks for the reply Highway Star, I'm thinking along the same lines. Also thanks Fridge Freezer for the V8 Owners link. 1. I recently found a 1988 RR cct diag suggesting the primary purpose of the Condenser was RF Suppression. 2. The Capacitor's ability to collapse the voltage rapidy jibes with me in that it is also across the battery and it would seem less likely to be able to do that unless the residual/intrinsic resistance of the wiring from battary thru the switch to the coil acted as a small ballast allowing the "remote" 12 volts to collapse more quickly and absorb the current from the coil likewise. 3. The suppression of spikes is, I think, important because the actual existance of the spike adds time to the period taken for the current to collapse naturally, and in many ways, spike control function would not be dissimilar to RF supression duties. I do have another question. I am part way thro writing a "definitive" (if thats possible) explanation and test program for this type of ignition system for the Rover SD1 Efi community - which also encompasses many RR/LR ign systems of the period. On the module in the above image in my first post there are two tags (at upper left) for the input trigger signal(s) from the dizzy inductor (or maybe Hall Effect device). In the below image of a module I once ownedand its signal cable there looks to be a Blue or Blue/White and Red or Red/Black wires plus a tagged outer screen. It would be a great help to nail that query down if anyone has such a module in their spares kit or on a car and can eye-ball the colours for me. Thanks Ramon www.vintagemodelairplane.com

First Post here by Newbie. Your valued knowledge gentlemen, please? Seen on the attached image of a period Rover Ignition Module fitted to various RR vehicles and also Rover SD1 Efi cars, is a condenser connected between the White wire "+12 Volt Feed/Coil +ve" and "Earth". On other period systems (eg, where the ign amplifier is on the side of the Distributor) a condenser is earthed with the coil retaining strap and connected likewise to "Coil +ve". I would like to establish the purpose of this condenser and have come up with three possibilities. 1 - A Radio Frequency Suppressor 2 - To assist the Coil Voltage to collapse rapidly when the amplifier switches off the current thro' the coil thereby enhancing the HT discharge. IE - Fatter Sparks. 3 - To absorb the Back EMF spikes generated by the coil and thereby protect the electronics circuits elsewhere. Does any one know if all, some or none of these reasons apply, and if None, what the heck does it do? Much obliged. Ramon www.vintagemodelairplane.com