[Wayfarer Vistors Box]

Hi All,

As some of you will know the box on top of the Wayfarer, North Wales was vandalised and removed from where The Countryside Recreational Access Group (CRAG) had replaced it after the old one that had been there for about 30 years had been vandalised. I went up there this morning to see it I could find it. I did find it as you can see in picture 2, picture 1 is where it was removed from.

The other pictures, 3 and 4, are the state of the box. Lucky enough the signing books were still in the box, so not lost this time.

I (CRAG) will do my/our best to get box fixed back in place by the weekend. Hopefully it will stay in place this time.

Paul

PS If you can not see the pics then pm me an email address and I will send them.

[Wayfarer Vistors Box]

(quote) Well, there's some sort of wierdo wandering about on the Wayfarer! Whilst passing by today, noticed that the box, so kindly donated by CRAG, was missing. Either it's been unscrewed and the screws replaced, or it's been wrenched from it's position. And it's not only 4x4 drivers unhappy about this - a group of about twelve cyclists were quite vociferous in condemnation of whoever's removed it.

Is another one a liklihood?

Regards,

John

(quote)

I have just seen this on another forum, Dose anyone know anything or when it was last seen?

Paul

[Sarn Helen]

I had the Sarn Helen repair project in my diary for Oct 30th , strange

That was the first one, this is/was the follow up.

Paul

[CRAG]

Neil if you are having trouble with the membership form send an email to info@crag-uk.org to get one, if that dose not work then try membership@crag-uk.org

Paul

[Sarn Helen]

Sarn Helen repair project this Sunday has been postponed till 4th December. Due to the fact that there is 3 inches of snow there and more coming down.

If you know of anyone that had planned to join us then please inform them of the change.

More news to follow on the GRAG, www.crag-uk.org and GLASS www.glass-uk.org web sites.

Paul

[CRAG]

The website in now live.

www.crag-uk.org

(Edit: Now clicky! geoffbeaumont)

[A couple of welding / fabrication / petrol tank questions . . .]

Try Dave at www.llama4x4.co.uk

Paul

[New Group Formed]

I know, i have edited it now.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

I take it through all this political waffle, that the guys who have formed CRAG feel that direct "action" is needed and were frustrated with GLASS being too insular?

As a Press Officer Paul, I think you're doing a wonderful job, everyone's talking about CRAG and is interested in what alternative you have to offer. Unfortunately you've left everyone guessing - you may find that gossip could overwhelm your intentions, I hope all publicity is good publicity.

I can't comment on whether I agree with a split from GLASS, I'm a member, I follow the code of conduct but I don't have time, inclination or the knowledge to get involved with the technicalities.

I wish you small mistakes and big results.

Thanks for the kind words. As Press Officer, I carnt spell, I am hopeless at grammer, but untill someone better comes along then I will do the best I can.

All we ask is to be given the chance. If we turn out to be useless then I am sure everyone will say so, but if we do well, will everyone say that as well??

Paul

[New Group Formed]

Hi Neil

I posted the statment on the behafe of Dave. It was not a response to what you said but just a statment. I will pass on your reply to him.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

No problem Paul.

Why don't you post your story over at the other site too?

You'll certainly get another debate, if you've got the energy

I will go and post.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

Statement from the Chairman Countryside Recreational Access Group

All at CRAG would like to thank those who have expressed an interest in the organisation. We would also like to thank those who have pledged membership, your support and commitment is priceless.

As the NERC bill reaches a critical stage, changes can still be made and the more our voices are raised in unity, the more we will as a Countryside Access Community, influence the decisions which are made on our behalf.

You already know who the founding members are and the general locations which we serve.

On the 26th of November, our website will go live, the web address is www.crag-uk.org and we look forward to your visiting our site and welcoming you as members in what will become an effective community of those seeking to preserve and enjoy unfettered access to our countryside.

At this stage of CRAG's development there are many questions, not least those concerning our Aims and Objectives, our Mission Statement, and our Constitution. These will all be placed on our website where the details will be available for everyone to see.

Until then, the founding members would prefer to respond only to membership enquiries. This will cut down the amount of time spent answering questions and allow CRAG's various team members to spend a little more time with their families. It is a very busy time for all right now in setting up this new organisation and your patience would be greatly appreciated.

To those who would accuse us of causing a rift within the laning community, we would answer that we are here to support, not tear down, existing organisations and we welcome the opportunity to help where we can in whatever ways we are able. We want to offer a positive response and input to local, regional and national government and can only do this with the support of the countryside access community.

As the Chairman of CRAG, I would like to thank each and every founding member for their energy, courage and conviction. Choosing this path has not been easy, I feel however, that it is the best way forward and one which offers an open and inclusive dialogue with all who enjoy access to the countryside.

It now falls to us to do what we say we will do, thank you for your patience.

Please feel free to join, membership packs are available via email.

Yours

Dave Rogers

Chairman, Countryside Recreational Access Group

[New Group Formed]

I didn't say GLASS was having a go at you, what I said was:-

A big difference in my book.

Les.

If I were GLASS then I might not be happy with it.

As for sponsorship as I said in my pm to you. I will make a personal donnation when i can, as I am not a rich man. CRAG is not able to offer sponsorship a this point in time.

But on GLASS heres a quote from a GLASS exec.

"Yep. A group of individuals, some members of GLASS, have decided that

our actions and inactions, as an Organisation cannot be reconciled with

their requirements for RoW support for MPV users. Hence, they've done

very few ever do and have actually done something about it - in this

case by forming their own group."

Paul

I would tend to agree with Les' and HFH's initial comments, but it seems Paul's heart is certainly in the right place

Thanks for that.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

Thanks Neil, we will try to do the best job we can. As for being Press Officer, then untill someone better comes along I will carry along.

Les as for GLASS having a go at us then a quote from a GLASS EXEC

"Yep. A group of individuals, some members of GLASS, have decided that

our actions and inactions, as an Organisation cannot be reconciled with

their requirements for RoW support for MPV users. Hence, they've done

very few ever do and have actually done something about it - in this

case by forming their own group."

Paul

[New Group Formed]

So far, I still fail to see what CRAG can do better than GLass. (or even different).

I think another minority group with a handful members will have even less clout than LARA or GLass. I'm sticking with the bigger boys in the playground, thanks.

All I can say to that is we will try to be better time will tell. As for joining us or not then that is a personal matter.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

With all respect Paul. that's just a list of names to me.

I recognise none of them.

What qualifies any of them to do the work you are proposing to do with our sponsorship?

I look forward to checking out your website.

All the questions you say that people should e-mail you to get answers to - wouldn't it be better to just post it?

Les.

Sorry Les I was typing as you posted.

If you need more then I will try to answer.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

Hmmmmmmmmm

Divide and conquer ?....RA would approve methinks.

Prob with this sort of thing is frankly commitment. Talk is cheap, continous back room work by a few ongoingly and without let up has saved our day many times over. Mick Dyer of AWDC Fame has been someone who has selfishly driven thumped and moved mountains, with little press, praise or money asked for.

GLASS IMHO is a worthy and well proven voice in the battle for sanity, many others staert with guns blazin' good intentions and dreams, but soon get worn down or dispondent or just drift away for various reassons....

You may have a plan, but what are you going to do better / different / more than others, ?

What is you knowledge of the legal and technical areas that we are within ?...without doubt in my conversations with Liz Hurley / Mike Dyer and other the absolute indept knowledge, attyending meetinsg of councils / bodies and knowing the legal ins and outs is a must...

Its not I am casting dispersioons at you or your new club but you will come up against Money, legal begals, clever dicks, and red tape / law, and you need to know who and what is true and which is "Tugging your chain"...I have seen and heard of many who have been "Out Classed" by purely the fact they have been ridiculed at a public meeting as they are "best Intentioned" but "Outclassed".....

So, no website as yet, and little detail, what exactly does the £25 get everyone ?, what will you do differently to LARA GLASS and others ?....whats your background, legal knowledge and ptrevious involvement in ROW and the various legal frameworks that surround it ?

Sorry if this post appears negative, it not meant that way, but if you are really keen on getting involev big time, continously, and working away at the antis and the "Private agendas" that so many have then I can easily put you in touch with mnay that would welcome such help.

The requests for Proof of driving lanes, witness statements, protest letters et all often meet with a incredible lack of response from the 4x4 world, a lesson we could all learn from the RA who only a few years ago mounted campaigns with member support to die for....

Rant Over, but hope this spark geuine sensible deabte and not a slanging or slaging match as that is NOT what I intend from this reply

Nige

Sorry if its not the answer you wanted. But it was not ment to answer you questions. But I will give it a go now.

Divide and conquer?

That is not what we are trying to do, we are giving a choice.

Talk is cheap.

Then yes it is, all we can do is try our hardest, and let people see our results.

What is you knowledge of the legal and technical areas that we are within?

Well mine is not a lot if I am honest. But that it where we will ask others.

As for GLASS being well know, then yes they are, but could be held against them.

So, no website as yet?

It is being worken on and should go live on the 25th November. We would have liked to have waited till then, but their was talk of us(CRAG) doing the rounds. We decided to go public because of this. The member ship fees will help us seek legal advice if needed. Yes some people will ask "what do we get for £25" other will not and still become members. All I can say on that if someone dose not think its worth it then they can hold back for now, but they can still help us if they want.

I will always try to answer any questions the best I can, I like most will not always be right.

I hope this and the names of the founder members helps.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

If anyone wishes to write to CRAG out of the public gaze then by all means please send an email to membership@crag-uk.org and we'll answer to the best of our ability.

In the interests of openness here is a list of the founding members of CRAG along with their roles within the group.

Dave Rogers - Chairman

Ray Dadd - Vice Chairman

Mark Margetts - Secretary

Pete Browning - Membership Officer

Jon Wildsmith - IT Officer

Paul Humphreys - Press Officer

Clive Richardson - Shropshire Regional Team Leader

Steve Mainwaring - Staffs Regional Team Leader

Mark Brenchley - Glos & Brecon Reg Team Leader

Jerry Herbert - BBNP Regional Team Leader

[New Group Formed]

I can't see anything 'new' that you intend to do that other groups aren't already doing.

Dilution of the various clubs isn't a good thing.

If people are a member os GLASS, and therefore pay their subs, are you asking them to also join yours at an additionl £25 P/A to achieve the same thing, leave Glass and join you (and therefore why if you're intentions are the same).

I don't doubt your intentions are good, but you haven't said anything that would convince me to join you in preference to another club.

You are just as unlikely to strike up any kind of dialogue with The RA as anyone else, and believe me, I have seen some very friendly and determined attempts that fall on deaf ears.

Some clubs already work with local authorities to help repair and clear blocked lanes.

Two things are destroying our right to use 'gree lanes'

One is a small minority of 4x4 users that do what the hell they like, and therefore paint us ll with the same brush, If you know what you are talking about, then you should really mention this.

The second is all the various clubs not communicationg with each other in order to put up a solid defence against those that deny us our rights. If your intention is to unite all the clubs in a common 'fight', then £25 a year is a bit steep.

A simple test - go onto the RA website and make a post - 'Hello, I'm a supporter of 4x4's and greenlane driving, I would like to discuss with you all the possibility of us having a better understanding of both our groups needs with regards to the countryside and it's access by walkers and motorised vehicles" - nothing wrong with that statement, friendly, inviting, etc. I've seen very similar posts like this one get deleted.

Please don't resort to pm's - you want our help, we want your honesty and openness

Les.

Hi Les

I can see what you are saying about the membership fee. We can only do our best to do the best job we can. We are not saying that we want to leave GLASS we are giving them a choice. Some laners we meet today when we were laning use to be members of GLASS, but said they would never go back to them(their words not mine).

As for the RA if you dont say as they say then you are out. We are trying to aim for people that use a vehicle to get out to the countryside, not just greenlaners.

The biggest thingwe have going for us is that most of the founding members of CRAG are EX-GLASS reps.

I will always try to do my best to answer any questions as honest as I can, weather I am right or wrong.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

Nice idea in principle

if you'd like to donate towards the running and upkeep of this site there is a link in the international forum at the top.

PM sent.

Paul

[New Group Formed]

[Admin Comment]

First of all I moved this thread here as it will in some way affect everyone that drives a Land Rover. The International Forum is the busiest forum as well.

Secondly, this topic is discussed very heavily on the Mud Club website and Glass Rep has responded.

Here's the link to that discussion:-

http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=13894

Les.

The Countryside Recreational Access Group

CRAG has been formed by a group of enthusiasts who regularly use motor vehicles in the countryside and who have become disillusioned with the approach of organisations in resolving current issues. CRAGs members believe that in order to protect our pastime in the current rapidly changing environment an alternative approach to that of the existing organisations will be required.

The cornerstone of the group’s objectives will be to develop closer working relationships and partnerships with Rights of Way, Highways and National Park Authorities. Whilst the group will not shy away from supporting legal actions where appropriate, the consensus is that these should be undertaken only as a last resort.

The focus of the groups’ activities will be to work closely with the relevant authorities to maintain, repair and clear routes and also to encourage them to take advantage of volunteer labour in order to get the best value from their budgets. This is aimed at generating positive PR and a change the in attitude towards motorised users in general by local authorities and the public.

CRAG will be seeking to appoint regional and area team leaders to co-ordinate activities on the ground and develop a rapport with the relevant authorities to organise volunteer projects etc.

Fundamental to the Group’s activities will be family orientated fun revolving around ROW use such as treasure hunts, BBQs camping etc.

If you’ve tried the rest and not found what you’re looking for we invite you to find out more about CRAG by dropping us a line at info@crag-uk.org. A website is currently under construction and should be up and running by the end of this month – Watch this space!

Membership for the first year is £25. For further information, please email info@crag-uk.org

The Group intends to work alongside existing organisations such as LARA, TRF and GLASS to represent the interests of motorised Rights of Way users at a local and national level.