mingdiesel Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) Advice required. Salisbury axle backlash appears to be mostly in sun & planet gears! I finally decided to investigate the cause of backlash in my 97 110 CSW (with 150k on the clock) rear drivetrain resulting in a pronounced clonk in rear axle on taking up drive. I've replaced worn A frame bushes which had crept to one side of both arms, the ball joint seems ok, checked halfshafts, drive flanges & checked propshaft for wear or play. The backlash or play amounts to about 40 degrees on propshaft flange or about 30 degrees with one rear wheel off the ground with handbrake on. I removed the Salisbury diff pan to check and the backlash in the crown & pinion gear, this is quite small however there's much more slop in the sun/planet gear inside the diff. Now diff pan is off I'm going to measure backlash on crown wheel with a DTI and compare against workshop manual spec. Q1. Is it necessary to replace both sun & planet gears to reduce/eliminate this slop or will new thrust washers alone make a significant improvement? I already have a set of thrust washers 607168. Q2. Is Britpart sun/planet gear kit RTC4488 any good or just made of cheese? has anyone fitted them who can comment, will it also require 4 pin cross shaft?? I have genuine Timken bearings 607180/60781/60787, crush tube & shims to rebuild the Salisbury however most of the wear actually appears to be between the planet sun & gears so I think it should be fixed first otherwise the knock will remain. Q3. Is it possible to use a bearing separator & puller to remove diff carrier bearings without damage if they are ok?, can bearings be drifted on with suitable steel tube or does this require a hydraulic press? I've had a search around and it seems quite a common problem but have been unable to find much information to learn from experienced & those who have gone there before. I don't want to fit Britpart sun/planet kit if it breaks up & destroys my rear diff, genuine are very expensive. I see rebuilt Salisbury axles for sale but am unsure whether any of this is actually reconditioned properly. Mingdiesel Edited February 19, 2017 by mingdiesel Added relavant information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted February 19, 2017 Author Share Posted February 19, 2017 Some measurements: I've just measured the crown wheel backlash with a DTI and it is between 0.011 and 0.013 inch which is just outside spec. Run out on the rear crown wheel is almost imperceptible. Levering the diff towards, then and away from pinion with tyre levers results in 2-3 thou at max movement on rear of crownwheel so not much play there. I painted engineers blue on the crown wheel and took the following pics of drive & coast side of teeth, didn't look to bad to me??. To me it looks like the majority of the backlash appears to be in the planet/sun gears. I have new halfshafts & drive members which I can use to eliminate any wear on them. Qa. Can sun/planet gears be replaced after removing the diff but without removing the crown wheel i.e. just splitting the diff halves by undoing the eight 607165 bolts? Qb. Would it be advisable to replace the 4 pin spider as well as planet/sun & thrusts? Qb.If I removed carrier bearing what size of shim would be required to reduce the crown wheel backlash to nearer 0.006 in? Interested in your informed opinions & advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 I'd replace the thrust bearings and would check the carrier main bearings while it's apart to see if they need replacement, but they're expensive, so keep the spares for later if the existing bearings are OK. I wouldn't trust the Britpart gears. The original gears shouldn't have worn much, and significant wear should be quite evident when you remove them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted February 19, 2017 Author Share Posted February 19, 2017 The non mechnical PO had the garage look at it apparently! I will measure the backlash at the prop flange and wheels with a protractor or iPhone inclinometer before pulling the halfshafts so I have a decent reference to compare results with. As suggested while I have the diff out I will check the condition of the diff carrier bearings & runners etc, I have a set ready but don't want to replace unnecessarily. Some marks on the crown wheel, maybe wear and oil was blackish when drained, altho raised breathers fitted I suspect it may have taken in water at some point! Think I should also mark, measure turns etc then undo the pinion nut & take the pinion out to check inner & outer pinion bearings too while I'm at it. Pinion nut looks newish and suspect the PO's garage replaced a leaking pinion seal so not sure how accurately it was torqued up again when seal was fitted. The prop drive flange turns very easily (maybe too easily) but will measure torque to turn with a spring balance before & after diff is removed against spec. Read Nicks post about re-torquing pinion nut to 150lbf, if the bearings & crush tube are ok but reference mark lost. I may try that & measure pinion pre-load otherwise have a new collapsible spacer ready. Reckon I can drift the pinion bearings out of the diff if they require replacement however inserting the new inner & outer bearing runners will require a suitable tool. Will a threaded rod and pipe flange work or should I drift it in with the old runners/s welded to a pipe with o.d. sized same as inside runner as I don't have the special tool. Yet to see if I can take the diff out without a spreader/stetcher however hope I can make something up with angle iron & threaded rod or use a ratchet strap & pivot to spread the case and get diff back in which is probably harder than taking it out. Not sure if I should fit a 3 or 5 thou shim under carrier bearing to reduce crown wheel backlash back within tolerance, may do if I have to fit new bearings otherwise bigger fish to fry at the moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Would it not be more likely that the cross pin is warn? I have a set of second hand gears your welcome to have for a small forum donation if you wish to try those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted February 19, 2017 Author Share Posted February 19, 2017 Hi Doug, I would appreciate that, will pm you, nice to have some options. You could be right, it would be surprising if the wear was on sun/planet gears alone. When turning the input drive flange you can feel the drag almost as if the sun/planet gears lock up before breaking free requiring much more force by hand. When changing input direction of rotation the gears also appear to lock up requiring some some force to turn freely again. I was just going to take the diff pan off to determine what was required to do this job, now I don't feel happy driving it until I've sorted the gears at least. I think this 110 must have been used for some heavy towing, neglect or abuse to cause so much wear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 The pinion bearing outer races are easy to replace in the casing, as are the the main carrier outers which will come off when you remove the diff. It's the inner race nearest the pinion head (the other slips off easily) and the diff carrier inners that need a good puller to remove. Drifting the pinion inner race off may be possible, and a piece of tube or even the old race with a slot cut in it would work well to drift the new bearing on. Trying to drift the main carrier bearings off, though, is likely just to damage the shims. As Doug says, the cross pin may be worn, so is worth a close look. As for the marks on the crown wheel teeth, that looks like surface rust that has been polished off by use. From the pattern, I'd suspect it was where the teeth sat in contact with the pinion for a long time with a lot of condensation. It doesn't look level enough for it to have been sat stationary with water in the diff from wading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 I can find a Bearmach cross pin 90607170 or BR2342 for about £50 LR Series do not have any good used. Any other suggestions? Can the pinion and diff carrier bearings be removed using a 75-105mm bearing separator & puller without damaging the bearings or shims behind them? Any other practical suggestions welcome. Mingdiesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 I've ordered a genuine cross pin & gear set , lets hope they do not turn out to be blue box at many times the price! Hopefully there's no damage to the carrier, hard to see anything until I separate it & examine the wear. Have cleaned up the diff pan in path cleaner & Deox C, much more corrosion and I think it would've been perforated, wish I had a pic of before & after. Once I get parts & remove diff I'll update this topic with what I find. Still not sure if I should put a 3 thou shim under carrier bearing to get crown wheel backlash within spec, tempting but it's not far out. Will examine all bearings & races for signs of wear, that could well be the next job as pinion drive flange initially turns very easily by hand, will check pre-load with spring balance before removal. Mingdiesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 The fact that you were able to move the carrier in and out from the pinion suggests the carrier bearing preload was too low, so a shim on the gear side bearing may help that as well as backlash. Of course, it could just be worn out bearings, but since you have a new set already, you're covered either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 I was working away from latter part of last week however my parts arrived. The sun & planet gears do not appear to have any F8HA `markings on them as I've seen on others and one leg of the cross pin has no flat, maybe I should have bought Bearmach parts after all if as I've been informed they are actually made in Italy as are some decent quality replacement gears. Now I'm trying to decide if I try do this under the 110 where I can get leverage or disconnect & move axle into the dry garage after I've accomplished everything else outside. Unfortunately the 110 is too tall to go in my garage, eventually I plan to modify the up & over door & move the lintel up 2 courses to allow access without running on rims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Prised out diff without too much effort onto upturned baisin underneath and this allowed me to remove it from underneath Defender without it dropping onto my gravel drive. When checking the torque on the pinion nut I found it was not very tight at all and turned with little effort on 10 inch socket ratchet. The drive flange came out easily and reason for leak was immediately obvious: a big deep wear groove meant this would never seal properly on grooved area just as well I have a new one as part of stc4403 10 spline diff flange XA > upgrade kit from shop4autoparts.net which I hope will fit correctly. Reading back through garage service receipts this input seal has been changed at least 3 times in the last 4 years, guess it was to difficult for garage to order a new drive flange too, however they must've seen it when removing it to replace the seal, maybe they thought they could get a seal on undamaged part of shaft. KOYO bearings - DOH! I think the bearings may have been replaced since new as all bearings are made by Koyo not Timken (I ordered a set of Timken bearings in anticipation), good quality bearings but does that mean I need to buy a Koyo bearing if I don't want to have to shim it all up again when I replace a bearing? The pinion head bearing rollers have a satin finnish, no apparent sign of damage but not sure whether to replace it or not, pity it's probably the most difficult bearing to replace, if I do I guess I should replace with a KOYO bearing to ensure shims are correct? I've attached a pic, interested in your comments? Carrier Bearing KOYO 3825-N Replaced the crosspin and sun/planet gears & shims etc, now the diff centre has very little slop, old cross pin was worn by did not look as bad as I expected and hard to determine then amount of wear without a micrometer but planet gear have quite a lot of movement on it, more than the new ones certainly. I've cleaned up both halves of diff and cleaned both bolt threads and cleaned holes with a tap as lots of Loctite shellac was used last time it was assembled making it extremely tight to remove bolts even once initially undone (you don't want them coming loose). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) Here are pics of carrier bearings. I don't think they are perfect, there's some signs of wear, possibly due to low oil level resulting from pinion seal oil leakage but they do not appear to be damaged, if it was easy to do I would probably replace the pinion head bearing however now I would need to buy Koyo bearings or see if I can return the Timken ones & exchange for Koyo maybe? Can see Koyo bearings reasonably priced on ebay but would hate to buy a counterfeit bearing & make things worse when they break up tho. The outer pinion bearing seems fine unfortunately it is also the easiest to change? Will get some light & inspect the pinion bearing cups in the diff housing to see how they look. If I don't find anything else think I will put it back together & run it to see if it's ok now with new spider & gears, if it gets noisy I now know whats involved stripping it down & will just have to replace the bearings but think there's some mileage left in them as they are especially as it seems they've been replaced previous to my ownership and don't think they have done 150K miles? Edited March 7, 2017 by mingdiesel made a mistake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) Results:- Diff is now back in axle, nice tight fit but tapped home without any problems. Compared backlash results before & after fitting new spider gears & crosspin as listed below. Before: 15 degrees backlash at one wheel with flange & other wheel fixed. After 5.7 degrees fitted with original halfshafts & drive flanges. Now 2.1 degrees with new OEM halfshafts & HD Drive flanges. Backlash on crown wheel is 10 thou, DTI was checked against a feeler gauge just in case. Reckon 10 thou at crown wheel equates to about 0.15 degree play at wheel and within spec. New STC4403 pinion drive flange & seal kit fitted and new Britpart crush tube tightened down to tolerance. This required 1/2" breaker bar & patience under vehicle, removing and turning the socket round a flat each time to get another bit as there's not much room to move the breaker bar about 10 to 15 degrees each time at most between the chassis & ground. FTC859 HD drive flanges are a very very tight fit on halfshafts (good) which removes any play at wheel end for now, I expect this will ease off a bit in use although it would be nice if they were one piece jobs. I've ordered 2 new FTC1740 stub axles as the ones fitted are worn by bearings turning & I don't want to fret the new halfshafts & flange splines any more than necessary with movement at hub end. Fitted new A frame bushes and have a new ball joint if required, the one fitted feels good and was fitted less than 2 years ago according to receipts from PO. Hopefully the diff is nice and quiet, will check pinion nut after a few hundred miles. Edited March 13, 2017 by mingdiesel corrections & additional information. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ratcliffe Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Im hoping to revive this thread if possible, its not that old at 3/4 years I have a Salisbury diff with similar play in the planet gears, earlier in the thread you considered replacing just the shims/washer [607168] and keeping the original cross member and gear set. I may have missed it but did you change the gear set because the cross/gears were worn? Or just because having all new parts was a guaranteed fix? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingdiesel Posted January 14, 2021 Author Share Posted January 14, 2021 Hi I changed the gears due to excessive wear & play in the planet gearset and crosspin, tried it with new shims but could not eliminate most of play hence purchase of new gearset, crosspin & shims. Combined with new heavy duty drive members this all but eliminated play at wheel. I believe the cause of much pl;ay was due to lack of lubrication as pinion seal & propshaft drive flange were worn & a previous new seal was fitted on a badly grooved pinion drive flange which must have led to low oil levels in axle housing/diffpan. Not hard to do once diff removed, I believe Bearmach gearset is ok & less expensive. I also changed front pinion bearing as it was showing signs of wear probably due to poor lubrication. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ratcliffe Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 Thank you for the reply, I will order all the parts then in case my play cannot be fixed with new shims. the shorter time the diff is on the healing bench the less time there is to damage it by accident Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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