madmatt Posted December 16, 2006 Author Share Posted December 16, 2006 MattJules is right if you are working on a building construction site - however that's the only place CPCS has any place/credence AND it's still not compulsory for all trades thanks to a failure by the CPCS guys to get off thier arses! CPCS is just another way to flog money out of the 'Trades', just like CITB etc etc Your Lantra course should have been 'Health and Safety & Risk Management in Vehicle Mounted Winching' - who ran it and where? To be honest, that was what I thought about CPCS schemes, I didn't think it stood sted on anything other than Construction sites. Do you mind if I PM you about course specifics? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Over the years I have designed lifting equipment, including mine winders and haulages (like a large winch, some capable of hauling 90T up a 1:3.5 grade. Factor of safety (and hoisting factors etc) are applied to the load. For an extreme example, say you have a 200T overhead crane and want to lift a 0.5kW motor. The motor is fitted with an eyebolt, which has a WLL suitable for it's weight, maybe 20kg, not for 200T. I don't think you have adequately described what it is that you use the winches and strops for. If there is no likelyhood of exceeding the rating of the strops, then there is no need for them to be rated for the stated pulling capacity of the winch. There may be good reasons why they have chosen winches that have a capacity well in excess of the loads that they have to work with. In this case strops that are rated for the load, but less than the capacity of the winch is reasonable. If the load could, under practical circumstances, reach the winch capacity. Then my aproach, would be to use strops and attachments, that match or exceed the rope breaking strength. Rather than the stated capacity of the winch, which I believe is unreliable. Also for these tasks, you should be working safely, which includes not being in a position where there is risk of being injured if the rope or attachments break. Also you should not use strops are attachments that are not safe for the application. Anything less is unsatisfactory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Hi Matt, Whereas the safety rating on a strop may be 7:1 it is there for a purpose. The strop will get damaged in normal use and the UTS will drop from about 14,000kg. The strop should be capable of bearing a load of 2,000 kg even if it has a reasonable amount of damage to it. This helps to keep the manufacturer on the right side off the law You have mentioned the capacity off the winch BUT have not said what the capacity of the steel rope/hook etc is. There might be a mismatch of the wire and the winch. As for not being fired for raising safety issues with your employers, whilst it is unlikely they will take a different viewpoint if anything goes wrong. I know of a case where fly shunting was done on steelworks (fly shunting is illegal on BR lines). The management were aware of this as it was brought up on a regular basis at meetings. When something went wrong the crew involved got fired but the management stayed put! Good luck with your meeting. Keep us informed off the outcome. Must admit will now have to go and check ratings on all my winch kit Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 For an extreme example, say you have a 200T overhead crane and want to lift a 0.5kW motor. The motor is fitted with an eyebolt, which has a WLL suitable for it's weight, maybe 20kg, not for 200T. I've always wondered why lifting rules are so well governed and there is basically nothing for pulling. Lifting loads are very easy to define as they are simply the weight (normally) of the item being lifted. When winching, the line load is very difficult to define. Because of this, I believe that all pulling activities should use rigging with a SWL at or above the rated line pull of the winch. This is the ONLY reasonable safe work practice to follow. IMO, this should INCLUDE the winch line as well. Why should crane operator be the only ones using properly rated equipment? Might I ask what sized rope you are using on those 14 k winches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 i don't know what your work conditions are like, or what your relationship with your employers is like, but if you get realy stuck, i'm sure the HSE would love to come down and do an inspection, if you phone them and advise them that you are being expected to work with unsatisfactory kit. if you do have an accident with this kit, and the equipment is found to be at fault, the blame chain will go all the way to the top.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmatt Posted December 17, 2006 Author Share Posted December 17, 2006 i don't know what your work conditions are like, or what your relationship with your employers is like, but if you get realy stuck, i'm sure the HSE would love to come down and do an inspection, if you phone them and advise them that you are being expected to work with unsatisfactory kit.if you do have an accident with this kit, and the equipment is found to be at fault, the blame chain will go all the way to the top.... Its hard to say if they are doing anything wrong, From where I'm standing reading everyones comments there is no letter of the law for winching kit so until the worst happens we will probably never know. Leeds, Thats how I understood lifting safety factors, to allow for some damage, as some idiot will use a damaged strop, so why not apply the same to winching. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 i'm sure an email or phone call to the HSE would clarify if they were doing anything wrong.... the HSE have a helpline.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 i don't know what your work conditions are like, or what your relationship with your employers is like, but if you get realy stuck, i'm sure the HSE would love to come down and do an inspection, if you phone them and advise them that you are being expected to work with unsatisfactory kit.if you do have an accident with this kit, and the equipment is found to be at fault, the blame chain will go all the way to the top.... Wow easy tiger you will have a Safety officer not just your Union body chap the properly qualified one Nebosh qualified. You will need him to look into it as it is massively gray area. As a site manager I had to be trained as a crane planning supervisor for my tower crane and all its accessories to be used safely and in the regs guidelines.(for writing all the risk assessments and method statements and planning the type of crane or lifting device and working out what strength and type of equipment is needed to carry out any lift) Lifting operations and winching operation are very different but the kit is the same. Yes the CSCS and CPCS is all part of the major contractors bully tactics for improving safety and regulating the quality of workers something along those lines. (they could see the foreign influx of labour being a safety issue) The question was have you been trained in how to use the strops. EG 110 weighs about 3t. but could possibly be towing so the train weight of (can't remember) say 5.5t then if the car is bogged you need to take into account for the increased load of the suction. The SWL of the strop should never be exceeded and never assume its good for more that is when you will have a accident. The strops decay over time so never ever reley on the safety factor so ignor what it is unless you want a accident or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Hi Matt, had a quick look in my winch kit bag this afternoon. Some of my shackles are embossed with the safe working load of 3.75 tons(?) others equally as beefy in dimensions not marked. Ooops Will have to get all kit out and carefully check not only the condition but also whether its correctly rated and stamped as such. If not they will be replaced!! One of my pet hates are the tiny mickey mouse shackles you see dangling from some peoples recovery points. About as much use as a chocolate fire guards. The trouble is whilst things are going well most people don't worry, but things can go tits up very quickly and people can be seriously hurt or killed Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Wow easy tiger don't worry, i wasn't suggesting dropping his employers in it on a massive scale, but its an option as a total last resort... as Jules said, you must have a safety officer at work, either at your place or an area man, just have a casual word with him, and explain your concerns... he, or somebody similar should be doing a safety audit from time to time so by asking him at the right time you wont get branded as a trouble maker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 One of my pet hates are the tiny mickey mouse shackles you see dangling from some peoples recovery points. About as much use as a chocolate fire guards. absolutly, i did recovery duties at a few landrover shows and you'd be amazed at the amount of people who get a heavily laden 110 or disco completely bogged, then expect you to tow them out with the crappy shackle dangling from their bumper, some of them wouldn't be strong enough to tie up a decent sized dog!! ...and then the owners get all stroppy when you explain that their recovery gear is utter garbage and refuse to use it. i've got some of those cheap shackles that i bought when i first got into the landrover thing... but they never go near my recovery kit these days... i only use big, tested and rated stuff now... most of our shackles are rated to lift 4.75 tonnes... which in my book is more than adequate for recovering a landrover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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