Suspension oddness but may have a simple solution

[Nonimouse]

17 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

All a bit of a journey of discovery this Land Rovering!  The Bilstein tech basically said "Given the variations of build over the years if there's some slightly ill-fitting part of a shock or bush thats to go on an older Land Rover I imagine those owners would just fix it with a spoon or something, which is why hardly anyone ever mentions the bushes are too loose". 

Ok! He has a point!

I've ben meesing about with suspension on vehicles for years. I used to compete in endurance rallies, as well as doing some very long distance overland support work. I've never been rolling in cash, so needed a vehicle that could do everything I asked of it. Still do now, although I don't do endurance stuff anymore.  I also did product tests for magasines, which gave me a chance to dig deeper into the cost and build quality side. When it comes down to it, very few of us can throw money at a vehicle, so finding well priced products that work is important.

The Bilstien tech's response should cover all vehicles. Everything wears. The whole reason we use a bush rather than a Rose joint is to absorb differing wear and tear.

The best alround set up I have every fitted to a Land Rover was on an old 300Tdi Disco Auto. Bought Cheap to strip for 'overland' parts and scrap. It had such a sweet drive train I decided to sort the welding. Part of the 'Overland ' mods were Terrafirma HD springs and shocks that lifted the vehicle 3". It handled like an overladen wheel barrow. I bought the correct colour Heavy Duty 'OE' springs form Britpart and some Delphi Gas shocks (£16 a corner!). It handled like a dream, lovely firm ride, but not overfirm. No body roll. Just lovely. I was going to keep it, but SWMBO wanted a D2

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

I've ben meesing about with suspension on vehicles for years. I used to compete in endurance rallies, as well as doing some very long distance overland support work. I've never been rolling in cash, so needed a vehicle that could do everything I asked of it. Still do now, although I don't do endurance stuff anymore.  I also did product tests for magasines, which gave me a chance to dig deeper into the cost and build quality side. When it comes down to it, very few of us can throw money at a vehicle, so finding well priced products that work is important.

The Bilstien tech's response should cover all vehicles. Everything wears. The whole reason we use a bush rather than a Rose joint is to absorb differing wear and tear.

The best alround set up I have every fitted to a Land Rover was on an old 300Tdi Disco Auto. Bought Cheap to strip for 'overland' parts and scrap. It had such a sweet drive train I decided to sort the welding. Part of the 'Overland ' mods were Terrafirma HD springs and shocks that lifted the vehicle 3". It handled like an overladen wheel barrow. I bought the correct colour Heavy Duty 'OE' springs form Britpart and some Delphi Gas shocks (£16 a corner!). It handled like a dream, lovely firm ride, but not overfirm. No body roll. Just lovely. I was going to keep it, but SWMBO wanted a D2

I hear you! When I started altering my 110 HT with the lifting roof and additional stuff like storage and water/fuel tanks I wanted to keep it sensible so opted for Land Rover Original Parts standard fitment springs all round (AirLift bags in rear) and Armstrong shock absorbers. It was lovely. Had to renew the rears at one point so replaced again with Armstrongs again, this time the HD variant, and it's been perfect. Smooth ride, well damped and more than adequate for getting me up and down hill tracks and forest roads/estate roads I need to go on (some really rough). I tried to replace all the shocks a few weeks ago with Armstrongs but none available anywhere which is why I ended up with the Monroes....

Boge versions arrived today so might get them on the front this weekend, and hopefully they'll be firmer than the Monroes.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Nonimouse]

12 minutes ago, Jocklandjohn said:

I hear you! When I started altering my 110 HT with the lifting roof and additional stuff like storage and water/fuel tanks I wanted to keep it sensible so opted for Land Rover Original Parts standard fitment springs all round (AirLift bags in rear) and Armstrong shock absorbers. It was lovely. Had to renew the rears at one point so replaced again with Armstrongs again, this time the HD variant, and it's been perfect. Smooth ride, well damped and more than adequate for getting me up and down hill tracks and forest roads/estate roads I need to go on (some really rough). I tried to replace all the shocks a few weeks ago with Armstrongs but none available anywhere which is why I ended up with the Monroes....

Boge versions arrived today so might get them on the front this weekend, and hopefully they'll be firmer than the Monroes.

OE non Gas, for the your vehicle would have been Woodhead or Armstrong. With Gas (dealer option) Delphi, Sachs, Boge or Gabriel. Somewhere along the line the non gas option seems to have been discontinued

Your vehicle has a max dynamic load rating , for roof loading, of 75kgs. I have seen, but can't find now, a graph showning the exponential effect that roof loading has on the 90/110/Defender design. This all changed in late 2007 with revisions to springs, ARB, tyre pressures etc. The graph showed that even a small addition of weight to the roof has a noticeable effect on the roll centre of the vehicle....

[Jocklandjohn]

5 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

OE non Gas, for the your vehicle would have been Woodhead or Armstrong. With Gas (dealer option) Delphi, Sachs, Boge or Gabriel. Somewhere along the line the non gas option seems to have been discontinued

Your vehicle has a max dynamic load rating , for roof loading, of 75kgs. I have seen, but can't find now, a graph showning the exponential effect that roof loading has on the 90/110/Defender design. This all changed in late 2007 with revisions to springs, ARB, tyre pressures etc. The graph showed that even a small addition of weight to the roof has a noticeable effect on the roll centre of the vehicle....

When I was designing/building I tried as best as I could to accomodate the additional weight I was adding and keeping it evenly distributed and low). Water tank went midway between the axles, storage boxes inside have heavy stuff at bottom, lighter stuff at top, fridge is central over back axle, interior wooden fittings all hand made from lightest ply and pine I could find, using careful bracing to allow lighter materials to be used, the slide out bed (at gutter level inside) is in forwards position when not being used, when pulled back for sleeping has two alloy pipes installed across width to support it (both stored at floor level when not being used) and actual bed material is very thin (12mm ply), roof rack is built into the roof (simply alloy upstands with holes drilled and alloy pipes across with removble locking pins to change location of them or remove them if not needed. The van sits level, goes round corners like its on rails and sway was non-existent on the previous shocks, a bit more so on the Monroe shock but not unnnervingly so.

[Nonimouse]

21 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

When I was designing/building I tried as best as I could to accomodate the additional weight I was adding and keeping it evenly distributed and low). Water tank went midway between the axles, storage boxes inside have heavy stuff at bottom, lighter stuff at top, fridge is central over back axle, interior wooden fittings all hand made from lightest ply and pine I could find, using careful bracing to allow lighter materials to be used, the slide out bed (at gutter level inside) is in forwards position when not being used, when pulled back for sleeping has two alloy pipes installed across width to support it (both stored at floor level when not being used) and actual bed material is very thin (12mm ply), roof rack is built into the roof (simply alloy upstands with holes drilled and alloy pipes across with removble locking pins to change location of them or remove them if not needed. The van sits level, goes round corners like its on rails and sway was non-existent on the previous shocks, a bit more so on the Monroe shock but not unnnervingly so.

I remeber the build thread - it was imnpressive

[Jocklandjohn]

On 11/25/2021 at 4:05 PM, Nonimouse said:

I remeber the build thread - it was imnpressive

Thanks!  I'm quite conservative when it comes to doing stuff and consider every option carefully before commiting myself ("measure twice, cut once" mentality!). The flexibility of the completed conversion has been beyond my expectation, in terms of the functionality of the camper facility, but also how little real impact its had on the day to day usability of the old 110HT. Despite containing a sink, water tank, addiiotnal fuel tank, cupboards, work surfaces, storage boxes, compressor fridge, seating unit/storage box and sleeping facilities for 3 adults & a child I was still able to stuff a serious pile of ash firewood in the back for a short transport run from a nearby field to the house. Can't really ask for more!

[Jocklandjohn]

Ok final update (he said hopefully!).

Spent ALL day lying in the snow but pulled the front driver spring and shock off, measured loose spring length 385mm (Spec sheet lists this as white/white 385mm) . Wrestled the new Boge shock in - the difference in effort required to compress it was noticeable (more effort) and despite the freezing temps I was sweating. In comparison the Monroe was so soft a robust child could probably compress it. I could instantly feel the firmer shock resistence when I lowered the van back on to the ground.

Passenger side next, spring out measured at 375mm loose (Spec sheet lists this as yellow/yellow 370mm), and refitted with another shiny Boge shock. Dropped van, whole front end felt nicely firm and unlike the previous Monroe shocks was really difficult to bounce up and down by jumping on the bumper.

Back end next - both shocks off and replaced with Bilsteins (I got the proper bushes so they are fitted sans steel sleeves).

Took it for a run, first thing was the speed table at the bottom of the hill in the village - hit it and....no bump stop whack, so accelerated off the other side (10mph on Monroes would whack bump stops) and managed 20 mph and....no bump stop collision. Happy days!

The took it over some rough B roads behind the house that previously had the van's front end shimmying all over the place when it hit some wobbly tarmac, but now it was controlled and confidence inspiring, with nary a hint of shimmy.

Next test was the fast A road which had the van feeling distinctly wobbly in a straight line at 55mph, and rather scary at 65mph with the Monroes at which point a speed-wobble rattled the steering wheel. But nothing now at all, just a secure-feeling smooth-steering straight line, and despite deliberate left/right/left swerves just to see what happened, I could not induce any instability.

So, my conclusion is that Monroe shocks are as soft as a melting blancmange.

I am now back to the predictable and safe performance I had with the previous Armstrongs.

Buyer beware!

 

* Should add that the Boge and Bilstein units are nothing fancy, just their basic oil-filled models: Boge @ £28 ex VAT and Bilstein @ £33 ex VAT. (Monroes were £45 each ex VAT.)

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[elbekko]

Good to hear.

I still think your spring rates are a bit on the limit if you need a shock to not hit the bumpstops, but good that everything is feeling better now.

In my experience, super stiff shocks vs very soft shocks is down to being gas-filled or not. But any shock should slowly compress with your weight on it, if it doesn't do that it's very faulty.

[Jocklandjohn]

19 minutes ago, elbekko said:

Good to hear.

I still think your spring rates are a bit on the limit if you need a shock to not hit the bumpstops, but good that everything is feeling better now.

In my experience, super stiff shocks vs very soft shocks is down to being gas-filled or not. But any shock should slowly compress with your weight on it, if it doesn't do that it's very faulty.

Yes, all the shocks compressed slowly under my weight, and extended again, but the Monroes required far less effort to compress and were fairly quick to extend. That was reflected in their performance on the vehicle too.  (The vehicle weight is within the recommended loading so the only oddity is the Monroe shocks.)

But yes, very happy to have it resolved!