dirtbox Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Ok, really need to pick the brains of the wise ones! Been given an old 110 from my mate. If i went and collected it from his mums, i could have it as its had it?! For years he and another mate have used the 110 for forestry work/logging/lugging etc and they have always said what a beast it was. Keen to check out what i could possibly do to run the engine as it is 24V without messing around too much, i have asked many spark's, mechanics and even my very wise old engineer mate is stumped! Basically, the engine is a turbo diesel nissan lump that is not the most regular model and with the cost of a new starter, alt etc i would like to save some pennies by leaving it as is. I've been told if I'm going to run 24v then i should just do the lot (I can probably get all the bits through my job), however, how much of a pig of a job is this? The engine does not use glow plugs and it relies on its high compression to start (Me thinks! ), so do i need the 24V through the starter to get it running? What gains can you get from running 24V? Can i run some sort of reducer (fitted after alternator) to all other electrical ancillaries? Your comments would be much appreciated! Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 If the whole vehicle is 24v and running ok like that, there's no reason to change it really. If you want to run 12v kit you can get a 'dropper', which is a 24-12 transformer, these are quite common as a lot of trucks are 24v and drivers want to run 12v kit. the only thing you'd have to watch is the power requirement of the 12v kit. vehicles are fitted with 24v systems as you get twice the power for the same current, or high power requirements can be met with a lower (half) current draw, lowering the need for beefy cables etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtbox Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Yeah, its running 12V at the mo, but was not sure about fitting a dropper. I would like to keep every thing as standard but i just think the engine might need the 24V to start as well as it does (Looking for reliability!)! If I went down the dropper route, how would this work? Run a separate lead from the battery and en route to wiring harness plug fit a "dropper"? Thanks in advance again- the puzzle unravels! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 If it's currently all 12v and running ok like that I'd be inclined to leave it. if you're going to fit a 24v starter, you're really going to need a 24 alternator, unless you go for a clever relay setup to momentarily (on starting) switch two 12v batteries from parallel to series. then you've got all the signalling/marker/dash/head light bulbs to change, or at least thing about. It's possible, I just wouldn't think it's needed, if the engine is already running ok on 12v. It might be more wise to fit a second battery, so you've got plenty of ooomph to turn the starter currently used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I know of one guy who ran one of these engines and had a 12volt starter for it, but iirc it cost a fortune. He then saw the light a put a 3.9 in! (Luke it was Big Ben from Kirton) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 (Luke it was Big Ben from Kirton) Don't recognise the name, what does he drive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Don't recognise the name, what does he drive? He sold it only the other day to some guys in Ireland: Was a blue B plate 90 very similar to yours, but with the Nissan 6 pot diesel, then he converted it to 3.5efi then to 3.9efi and painted it black with a truck cab. Dans mods to it here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtbox Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 Mine is currently a convert 3.5 V8 on carbs that i have gassed up. Dont get me wrong, i absolutely love the drive- however the 3.5 turbo diesel has the same BHP but over half again the torque! Also as much as I'm pleased with my gas set up, I do about 320 miles per week, this means filling up twice ish a week- gets a bit frustrating standing at a gas pump in the rain for 10 mins every time i fill up. Oh, and at 60p a litre were i live as opposed to 60p at the most with home brew bio and get twice the mpg (And loose the gas tank out of my much valued load space!) I have made my mind up to at least try this beast engine out! I have probably left out the info on my current set up on my first explanation, ( due to the replies! ) so just to confirm, i have 12V on my 3.5V8 but want a 24V starter for the next engine ( I want to fit! ) and I dont know how to drop the power after the starter/ alt for the rest of the electricals to work without changing them also. OR, is it beneficial to have 24V and if so, why??? Thanks for the input so far (Even if i have not explained myself before! ) Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
istruggle2gate11 Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Mine is currently a convert 3.5 V8 on carbs that i have gassed up. Dont get me wrong, i absolutely love the drive- however the 3.5 turbo diesel has the same BHP but over half again the torque! Also as much as I'm pleased with my gas set up, I do about 320 miles per week, this means filling up twice ish a week- gets a bit frustrating standing at a gas pump in the rain for 10 mins every time i fill up. Oh, and at 60p a litre were i live as opposed to 60p at the most with home brew bio and get twice the mpg (And loose the gas tank out of my much valued load space!) I have made my mind up to at least try this beast engine out!I have probably left out the info on my current set up on my first explanation, ( due to the replies! ) so just to confirm, i have 12V on my 3.5V8 but want a 24V starter for the next engine ( I want to fit! ) and I dont know how to drop the power after the starter/ alt for the rest of the electricals to work without changing them also. OR, is it beneficial to have 24V and if so, why??? Thanks for the input so far (Even if i have not explained myself before! ) Cheers, Paul Paul, just double check your "new" mpg, the guy I know replaced the 6 pot squeezal for a number of reasons: 1) It weighs more than the moon, he used to get stuck on the front in the gloop regularly. 2) With road use, and higher RPM it was not that good for economy. 3) It didnt rev very fast for good road speed acceleration 4) It didnt rev fast for good hill climbing 5) It was very sluggish when towing 6) It was expensive for service parts 7) We used to laugh at him for having a diesel The above was his opinion and justification for going v8, I really cant comment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtbox Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 Thanks for the input istruggle. Yeah, i have looked up as much as possible to do with the engine and in doing so i have read loads about their six pots too. Totally agree about every thing you have said as that seems to be the general view from most. However, the engine i am hoping to fit is not the SD30 (The six pot), it is usually this engine that many have used in the conversions. Mine is the FD35t. Out of a forklift????? Or a cabstar? I have had a drive of the 110 and it seemed really good, not quite the same pick up in speed like my V8 but not too far off! Also, it pulls uphill with a load of grunt, totally over loaded with the axles on the bump stops! I know what you say about it weighing in a good match for the titanic but its a 4 pot and ALOT smaller that the SD series although its still a hefty old lump of cast! And with all this the economy was still pretty good! I know its not a patch on a megajolted, megasquirted V8 or for those other diesel lovers out their the 2/300 or TD5- the thing is, its free! I can make my own bio and run a real powerful engine for real cheap, and its waterproof without too much hassle! Now, do you have a tear in your eye or are you still thinking 'you mad IDIOT'!!! :lol: Anyway, i know a lot of people are against this 'NON standard' type of conversion (and i totally understand as i have felt the same), but my good friend used to drive the 110 every day for a mate and he always sang its praises. So i do feel happy to go for it but i'm still really stuck with electricals!!!!!! If anyone knows how to 'drop' the current from 24v to 12v, PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blink: thanks again and sorry to go on! Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 You could fit two 12v batteries, in series, with a 24v starter and a 24v alternator, and replace all the bulbs with 24v versions (including the dash telltales) or run the 12v lights off the first of the pair of batteries. That way, your block/chassis would still be the correct common earth. There might well be a reason why this is a bad idea but i really can't think of it right now. The only other option would be using a dropper , but you'd need at least 2 like the one in the link to run a vehicle's worth of lights. not a particularly neat way of doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtbox Posted January 16, 2008 Author Share Posted January 16, 2008 thats exactly the sort of thing i was looking for!!! Thanks luke! The idea of using the first battery, - Would the alternator not be pumping 24V back into it? That would be the best bet if this would work as the droppers as you rightly say are a bit of a bodge! Been speaking to my electronics mate this eve and he also highlighted the possible problem of water getting into a dropper and causing failure! He says if i can be bothered with the hassle, change all the electrical items you can and whatever is left i.e. stereo, can be discreetly dropped in a waterproof place?? Not sure still! :blink: He started talking about different resistors and perhaps he could make a PCB etc etc :blink: :rolleyes: Lost me, i started thinking about wading when he mentioned deep water! :lol: Anyway, Thought of another mate at work i could ask but if anyone has ever done this sort of thing, or you understand this electrical madness, I'd really appreciate the advice! Many thanks again for the help! Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 The 24v alternator would put 24v across two 12v batteries - which means the sums add up. The 'first' battery will still have its -ve at ground, and it's +ve at 12v, so i think you can use it ok. The 'second' battery will have it's ground floating at 12v, so you couldnt use that to power anything earthed to the vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Back in the dim and distant days when I used to build fire engines, we used to do exactly as Luke has sugested to get 12v feeds for certain bits of comms equipment from the 24v battery system used on the chassis. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Well if it worked for you guys! I've been thinking about this, and talking to a learned friend etc. The first battery would be doing most of the work - powering the 12v vehicle; the second battery wouldn't really do much, apart from being part of 24v cranking. This might cause an inbalance, meaning you end up with say a 11v and a 13v battery, It would depend on if the different usage of each battery would affect it's internal resistance over time. I don't know enough about battery chemistry etc to comment. That'd be the easiest way to do it i think. "12v alternator 24 starter" is prefectly possible, but a lot more hazardous - you'd be able to short circuit a battery if it went wrong, and you really really don't want to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I've been thinking about this, and talking to a learned friend etc. The first battery would be doing most of the work - powering the 12v vehicle; the second battery wouldn't really do much, apart from being part of 24v cranking. This might cause an inbalance, meaning you end up with say a 11v and a 13v battery, It would depend on if the different usage of each battery would affect it's internal resistance over time. I would agree with you that on a 12v vehicle that would be the case, obviously on the fire engines it was less of an issue as most of the electrics were 24v. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtbox Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thanks for the replies! Spoke to a mate today and he said pretty much exactly the same thing. If i took the 12V live from the battery connected to earth, (1st battery), the second live would give off the required 24V It would be charged back up in reverse filling all 24V back up in two halves. Think this makes sense now! Got any good idea how to wire in the loom that comes out of the alternator? I'd still like to run everything as it is (Some on ignition and others not), rather than just run everything from a permanent live? Would splicing into the loom at the alternator run in this way? Cheers again! Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 You need to re-wire the vehicle so the live to the fusebox (and anything else, except the starter) is coming off the first (12v) battery. The alternator output needs to go to the second of the two batteries in series, as does the starter. You'll also need to investigate whether the 24v starter requires 24v for the starter solenoid, it most likely will. In which case you'll need to wire in a 24v starter button to keep 12v away from the ignition switch. This really isn't work to be undertaken lightly, you have the potential to blow every 12v lamp on the vehicle if they're switched and the wiring goes wrong. Once it's done (correctly), it'll work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtbox Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thanks luke! I have a push button starter all ready and waiting. Thats exactly what i thought, the alternator wire to the second battery as its sending 24V back along with the starter button/starter motor. From the first battery i'd connect up my permanent live to the lights and all the other connections that i could disconnect from the loom running out of the alternator. Oh, and I'l check my workshop manual to see what else is wired into the starter solenoid so that isn't blown to bits when i press the starter button for the first time! Great, thanks for all the help, best get engine stripping asap as i cant wait to fit it now! Cheers again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 nearly everything should be wired through the fusebox, isolate the supply to the fuse box and take that back to the first battery and i reckon you'll be most of the way there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtbox Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 thats brilliant! Thanks again luke- you have been a great help! Much appreciated! :i-m_so_happy: Will let you know how i get on. Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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