PaulN Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 Thanks Les - Didn't want to add a variable - just wanted to make sure that 3-4 foot head would not come up short of pressure and so short of juice to the FP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 Guys, Compression tests done with results from garage pasted below. A re-run of compression tests ought to be done whilst the engine is hot to determine if the disparity between cylinder disappears or reduces significantly. Not so sure that it's necessary on the basis that the engine performs so well when it's hot it - might be a bit irrelevant. As for air in fuel we are looking at a piece of clear tubing to watch for bubbles for 1st 10 mins, as suggested on this forum, but don't want to cloud the issue yet, at least, not until we've determined whether opinions on the compression values take us. We'd both appreciate a second opinion on the stats before going any further. Ist run Cyl 1 - 22 Bar (2200kN/m2) - 1 bar = 100 kN/m2 Cyl 2 - 29 Bar Cyl 3 - 19 Bar Cyl 4 - 28 Bar 2nd run Cyl 1 - 21 Bar Cyl 2 - 29 Bar Cyl 3 - 20 Bar Cyl 4 - 28 Bar Expected reading off graph for this speed was 28-31 Bar We then ran the engine with compression tester in EACH CYLINDER AT ABOUT 1500 RPM. Cyl 1 - 50 Bar Cyl 2 - 55 Bar Cyl 3 - 40 Bar Cyl 4 - 55 Bar Expected reading from graph at this speed was 48-50 Bar From this I feel that there is an issue with cyl 3 and cyl 1 as both were lower than 2 and 4. (Remember when we did warm test last month all cylinders made over 31 Bar but recall that Cyl 3 was lower than others). During the engine running test there was no noticeable smoke but once test complete and engine ran on all 4 cylinders, there was some light blue smoke. What do you think? (For anyone coming in at the end of this thread we are talking serious, copious, billowing white smoke (tinged blue) and misfiring at cold start (1st 10 mins) between 500 - 2000 rom. After that - clean and performs well) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 I've had a similar experience, as in white smoke and only on start-up. it turned out to be a small coolant leak into number 3 cylinder, the only way I found out was the small (but constant) coolant loss, around 1/4 litre per 1000 kilometers Noted! - thanks Boydie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 Anyone interpret the results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Have you smelt the smoke ? - you'll easily be able to identify if it's oil/steam/fuel. Does the engine breathe at all out of the oil filler cap when it's removed? No3 cylinder seems to be the problem - No1 is a bit low, but not too bad really - you always get a variation od pressure over the 4-cylinders on a used engine. In my opinion - not air in the system, nor valve gaps (it would get worse as the engine heats up). The smoke symptoms you describe is typical of a fuel problem (timing, etc) Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Have you smelt the smoke ? - you'll easily be able to identify if it's oil/steam/fuel. Does the engine breathe at all out of the oil filler cap when it's removed? No3 cylinder seems to be the problem - No1 is a bit low, but not too bad really - you always get a variation od pressure over the 4-cylinders on a used engine. In my opinion - not air in the system, nor valve gaps (it would get worse as the engine heats up). The smoke symptoms you describe is typical of a fuel problem (timing, etc) Les. Hi Les, Yes acrid smell - ties in with fuel though garage don't think fueling! They want to take head off to see what it shows. The likelihood is that something obvious or at least tell tales signs will be found - head gasket, warp on head, worn valves or guides, play in same, sticking rings etc. Did you see the vid (below) ? I feel the Jerry can / clear fuel pipe test is worth doing for the time it will take (may find pin holes) and then to go with what the profs say and take head off. I can't help but have a gut feeling that the cause might be mis-timed or disproportionate fueling..... What bothers me is that no-one can come up with is whether or not the Bosch VE (R509) IP actually has a Cold Start Device or not and if it does what the symptoms are if it goes wrong. According to this text: " On a Bosch VE type pump, a manual cold start device advances the injection timing at idle and during low-speed running. A lever turns a cam that pushes the hydraulic piston to the left, advancing injection timing about five degrees. This injection advance provides more time for the fuel to burn, which improves performance and prevents smoking during cold starts and warm-up. However, above 2200 RPM the piston operates normally and does not contact the cam. There are different types of automatic CSDs (cold start devices) available for the VE injection pump. " I have the white smoke problem for the exactly described time a CSD is supposed to be working! The IP has been off and to a so called Bosch Specialist but I bet they don't check any CSD modules! If it's this and nothing more than a timing issue may be wasting cash in having the head off. 300.mov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisbowler Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 According to the technical specification for this engine, any more than 70 psi ( 4.887 BAR ) variance in pressures between cylinders is outside manufacturers tolerances. The results above show anything up to 10 BAR difference - therefore there is a problem with the engine and its ability to create sufficient pressure and that has nothing to do with fueling. Chris Bowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Well here we are. For those who followed - even those who got bored - I hope this thread will help someone avoid what I've been through. Compression tests did show cyl 3 was down and 1 also a bit. Off the head came with the full expectation of something obvious. There wasn't apparently! Slight play in some of the valves but all were intact. Nothing untoward in the bores - even the honing like new - tiny bit of glazing. But the compressions were variable between pots so away went the head for examination and refurb as necessary - as did the pistons for having new rings fitted. New valves where necessary, new guides where necessary, re-lapped valves, new head gasket and stretch bolts and..... ....and hey presto! She smoked even worse than before and for longer (grrr) :angry: Engine now quite clackety too. My theory here is that the engine is so gas tight now, with all the work done, that the problem is being emphasised. So a trip to discuss with Bosch pump specialist. Left over night to enable a cold start in the morning - boy did she oblige. We both agreed that, with all the work that's been done, there can be little else left other than the amount of fueling and/or the timing of that fueling. "I reckon Pump timing too" the Bosch Man said. Bonnet up. 15 mins later the IP pump drive spindle had been moved half a milimeter to advance. Retightened. Engine started. Quieter engine, NO SMOKE, much better drive! Each morning now NO SMOKE! NO Smoke! I should be ecstatic! NO SMOKE NO SMOKE NO SMOKE! NO SMOKE NO SMOKE NO SMOKE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshGas Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I'm sorry you went through all the additional expense to be proven correct in the end - But at least you now have a perfect engine following the virtual rebuild and should be able to rest easy for a while. That's Defenders for you. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullyjohn Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I am glad you have it sorted Paul. It woul dbe interesting and perhaps useful to know what amount of advance yu had to dial in to fix the issue. I assume the pump had been disturbed at some time giving rise to the mis-timing? Is it an easy job to access the timing controls on the pump ? Woul dperhaps be a useful thing to post some info about if you can... I assume you would notice some difference in performance other than lack of smoke . I assume its the static timing that was moved - and that the rest of the advance curve will be moved similarly? Anyway hopefully you will have many years with out any smoke and you know the rest of your engine is fit for purpose.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted August 2, 2011 Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 I am glad you have it sorted Paul. It woul dbe interesting and perhaps useful to know what amount of advance yu had to dial in to fix the issue. I assume the pump had been disturbed at some time giving rise to the mis-timing? Is it an easy job to access the timing controls on the pump ? Woul dperhaps be a useful thing to post some info about if you can... I assume you would notice some difference in performance other than lack of smoke . I assume its the static timing that was moved - and that the rest of the advance curve will be moved similarly? Anyway hopefully you will have many years with out any smoke and you know the rest of your engine is fit for purpose.. Thanks Bully, It was only half mm! Not completely sorted until dialled in another 1mm. Smoke was there before new timing belt and still after new one and all other mods! Might help someone further if they went on to here... (Linky) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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