Mean Green Starter Motor

[English Gent]

Hello everybody, I hope you've had a nice Christmas and a happy new year.

I've got a little problem in that my mean green starter won't start the Landy (just when I could do with a 4x4). When I press the button to trigger the inbuilt solenoid I can hear the starter motor run but it's not engaging the flywheel. I rotated the engine on the starting handle, and pressed the button and it fired up. I ran the motor for a bit, turned it off again, and it wouldn't fire up. I tried turning the engine and it didn't start, turned it again on the handle, and then it did fire up.

I was beginning to think about damaged teeth on the flywheel. I turned it off again and no matter what I did it wouldn't engage the engine. I removed the starter and found that the teeth are all intact. I haven't 'bench' tested it as yet (I'm more of a remove and replace big bits rather than fiddly intricacies), however I have a friendly auto-electrics company (shut over the holidays) who today told me that they generally replace whole motors these days.

The UK importer (LA Supertrux) told me that they've had difficulties getting their orders from Mean Green.

I'm at the point now where I'm thinking about pulling it to bits, even though I don't really know what I'm looking at. It won't work, so I can hardly make it any worse can I?

[Phil Hancock]

I have never heard of 'Mean Green', but if the one way drive is a roller clutch just like the Lucas starter on the late 2.25d, then they wear and although they feel fine when you try to turn the starter backwards they actually slip under load, the giveaway is that in the free wheel direction they are free when there should be some resistance while slipping.

Clear as mud??

[English Gent]

Now I'm even more confused. When the starter motor was in the vehicle I could just hear the starter motor turning. It occurred to me that the flywheel might not be attached to the engine? With the Landy in gear (had to climb in through the back door as the front is frozen shut now), I can't turn the engine, so it's not the flywheel area.

I tried turning the starter cog in both directions (I'm not sure which direction is the freewheel) but I do sense resistance in both directions. I clamped it in a workmate as I can't get to my shed for all the snow. With a pair of jump leads, one to the main feed and the earth on the casing, I attempted to trigger the solenoid. I got a small spark at the solenoid trigger but nothing else. I tried again after giving the clamps a good wiggle but still nothing. A voltmeter across the battery shows 12.9 V, but touching the black probe to the small terminal trigger show 12.9V also, and the case is also apparently live at 12.9V too. The other section of the unit (with the funny green sticker) shows no voltage.

[errol209]

I think Phil meant the "pre-engaged" type of starter where the motor turning throws the pinion forward into engagement?

Yours is the solenoid type, where the bit with the sticker connects the battery to the motor (which is OK, cos the motor goes round on the key) and pushes the pinion forward via a lever (in the housing nearest the camera. If you can get it to start at all, then that bit must be good enough.

What's really odd is the voltage readings. There should be short fat link on the back between the solenoid and motor and the live feed should go to the other big terminal on the solenoid first, leaving a smaller terminal left over for the feed from the ignition. I think you may have your jump leads on wrong ...

However, I'm inclined to suggest that if it doesn't catch first time, but does after you've turned it over, then the teeth on the starter ring at various locations might be knackered. You should be able to see them through the starter motor hole, possibly with a mirror.

Edit: look at the teeth in the photo, they're only worn right at the end, meaning that it isn't engaging fully.

[English Gent]

The way I had the jump leads was exactly as I removed it from the vehicle. The positive lead to the post visible in the top of the picture. The earth lead to the negative battery post and the casing mounting holes (I have a twin earth - one to the chassis and one off the top mounting hole direct to the battery). I 'attempted' to trigger the motor by using a small wire between the jumper positive clamp and the little screw terminal seen below the main feed in the picture.

When this first occurred the engine caught after I turned it round on the starting handle. When I attempted to get it going again at home, it didn't want to engage the flywheel (checked again by trying to start in gear) I left the engine in a position where I new it wouldn't start and checked the teeth when I pulled the starter unit, and there is a full set of teeth visible.

I'm not really convinced that the ends of the teeth are worn, I think they've been deliberately chamferred as the marking are virtually identical on each tooth. The whole cog section only comes out that far, and without the bit of card shown, it pops back inside the end of the housing.

[Phil Hancock]

I was referring to the diesel pre engage type not the petrol inertia type. The 'wear' on the teeth ends is not wear but a machined lead to assist in the gears meshing, the ring gear should be similar it avoids the tooth on tooth clunk.

[English Gent]

I've disconnected the main feed cable from the landy and used that to trigger the small terminal. The motor kicked like a mule and the drive cog shot out and spun up.

What do I do now? Replace the wire from the push button to the small terminal even though I was hearing the motor do something?

Assume it's some kind of clutch inside the unit?

Refit the whole starter unit and see what happens, followed by calling Homestart

[Jon White]

What engine is this on?

[errol209]

What do I do now? Replace the wire from the push button to the small terminal even though I was hearing the motor do something?

Assume it's some kind of clutch inside the unit?

There is a freewheel, to stop the engine turning the motor over when it starts: I don't recall them having a clutch, but I'll admit I've not seen many. I think a clutch is a feature of the pre-engaged type?

The only other thing I can think of, and it's not easy to test, is that the engagement fork / lever between the solenoid and pinion has two points of weakness: the pivot pin and the spring between the fork and the pinion. If either is broken or worn then the pinion would not be pushed forward properly. Otherwise I'm stumped.

As to chamfered teeth, you learn something every day on here!

[English Gent]

Engine is a 2.25 petrol, 3 main bearing engine, with a Automotive Component Remanufacturing power plus head and SU conversion.

Think I'll take it to the auto electricians tomorrow.

[David Sparkes]

... The motor kicked like a mule and the drive cog shot out and spun up.

...

The cog shooting out shows the solenoid (with the green sticker)is operating mechanically.

The kick like a mule and spinning up shows the electrical contacts, associated with the solenoid operating mechanically, are making good contact.

The kick like a mule and spinning up also shows the motor is working well.

The motor is being energised because the contacts operated by the solenoid are good.

Your test is what you should expect from a good starter motor.

If you can get the same good result from several tests, then you could get a second opinion from your local auto electricians, but you would also be justified in refitting the starter motor and trying to understand why the power wasn't reaching the solenoid to operate it.

"... the little screw terminal seen below the main feed in the picture"

Is this the terminal that the small wire (possibly white with a red stripe (tracer)) is connected to when the unit is mounted in the car?

My suggestion is that either the solenoid isn't operating (no mechanical click when you operate the key),

OR the solenoid partially operates (you hear a soft click), but because the operation is only partial the main electrical contacts are not making,

OR the solenoid is fully operating (you hear a louder click), but the electrical contacts are not conducting power to the motor.

I suggest the problem appears to be intermittent, and turning the engine over by the starting handle makes no practical difference, and can be ignored, except perhaps it shakes the engine and perhaps causes a broken wire to 'make' the broken ends.

HTH

[Phil Hancock]

but if the one way drive is a roller clutch just like the Lucas starter on the late 2.25d, then they wear and although they feel fine when you try to turn the starter backwards they actually slip under load, the giveaway is that in the free wheel direction they are free when there should be some resistance while slipping.

The freewheel is knackered in the starter. Been there, seen it, done it & got the tee shirt. Starter wizzing and engine not turning over = knackered freewheel.

[David Sparkes]

Shrug, I can't recall ever disassembling a starter motor with a roller clutch in it, so I can't pass comment on that aspect.

I do notice that you say 'if the one way drive is a roller clutch ...'.

Does the if mean you aren't certain what the Mean Green range use?

There is nothing about a clutch immediately apparent on the home web site, they just talk about 'gear reduction', by which I assume they mean there is an intermediate gear between the motor and the pinion.

http://www.mean-green.com/products/starter.html

Regards

[Jon White]

The series ring gear is not designed for this type of starter - the standard series starter doesnt operate in this way. This type of starter is similar to the ones used on 2.5 petrols in defenders. The 2.5's use a different ring gear that is designed for use with this type of starter.

The stock series one is pre-engaged and does not have a throw out solenoid.

You either need to go back to a standard series type starter or look into changing the ring gear.

Jon

[David Sparkes]

Jon,

I see a contradiction in this sentance of yours "The stock series one is pre-engaged and does not have a throw out solenoid."

My reasoning is that a pre-engaged starter motor DOES have a throw out solenoid, which it uses to 'pre-engage' the pinion with the flywheel. I see the Mean Green as a pre-engaged type starter motor.

What I think you meant is that the stock Series starter motor is of the INERTIA type, where the starter motor starts turning and the inertia of the pinion sees it slide down helical splines into the flywheel ring gear.

I didn't know the stock Series starter motor was of this style, but it makes sense, given the age of the stock Series 2.25 engines.

I also appreciate the point you are making; the flywheel ring gear designed for an inertia starter is different to the ring gear designed for use with a pre-engaged starter as they have the chamfer on the opposite sides of the teeth.

With a pre-engaged design, the pinion is close to the starter motor, and travels away from the motor to engage the ring gear, entering from the crankshaft side of the flywheel.

With the inertia design the pinion is well away from the motor, sliding back towards the motor, entering the ring gear from the clutch side of the flywheel.

As you conclude, once this point is realised it does seem odd that someone should sell a pre-engaged starter motor for use with a flywheel intended for an inertia starter.

Regards.

[errol209]

Jon,

I see a contradiction in this sentance of yours "The stock series one is pre-engaged and does not have a throw out solenoid."

My reasoning is that a pre-engaged starter motor DOES have a throw out solenoid, which it uses to 'pre-engage' the pinion with the flywheel. I see the Mean Green as a pre-engaged type starter motor.

What I think you meant is that the stock Series starter motor is of the INERTIA type, where the starter motor starts turning and the inertia of the pinion sees it slide down helical splines into the flywheel ring gear.

My unreserved apologies for any contribution I may have made to this issue, I can only plead poor memory of my Car Mechanic Badge (yes, really).

[Jon White]

David,

Thats exactly what i meant! You just put it into the correct english for me! :-)

It doesnt surprise me that it doesnt work properly as its from and American supplier!

I've no idea if the ring gear from a 2.5 would fit onto the series flywheel, but otherwise its time to go back to the series starter.

The series starter is indeed the inertia type system and the solenoid is a separate unit thats bolted to the air filter mounting on a series 3.

Jon

[English Gent]

Had another fiddle today. I refitted the starter and arranged the cables in the same way as per the bench test. I got the same noises but no go. I've had a closer look and I can indeed see that the gearbox side of the teeth are chamfered. I can also see a small gap between the edge of the flywheel casting and the beginning of the teeth. I've had a feel and I think my starter cog slides out just far enough to touch the back of the teeth rather than actually engage with them. I can make out some fresh marks on the back of the teeth on the flywheel.

I think the teeth have come loose on the flywheel

[Phil Hancock]

The IF as regards the roller clutch is because i have never seen a mean green starter except in the pictures on this post and the fact that the early 2.25 diesel starter used a multi plate clutch with a spiral spline set up to make the drive one way. I would expect a roller clutch tho as they are shorter in length than the multiplate clutch.

[David Sparkes]

Had another fiddle today. I refitted the starter and arranged the cables in the same way as per the bench test. I got the same noises but no go. I've had a closer look and I can indeed see that the gearbox side of the teeth are chamfered.

OK, it looks as though the suggestion was correct, the flywheel is set up for an inertia starter, which you haven't got.

I can also see a small gap between the edge of the flywheel casting and the beginning of the teeth. I've had a feel and I think my starter cog slides out just far enough to touch the back of the teeth rather than actually engage with them. I can make out some fresh marks on the back of the teeth on the flywheel.

That seems like good investigation. I suggest (as a test) putting a couple plain washers on the studs, then putting the starter motor back on. You may have to file a bit off the sides of the washers so they allow the motor to slide between the washer equipped studs.

I'd hesitate about suggesting this as a permanent solution, as the motor is normally located securely IN the engine backplate. The washers will push the motor out of this 360 degree locating ring. Try it and see.

I think the teeth have come loose on the flywheel.

I'm not so sure, because the toothed ring is a shrink fit on the flywheel, there is nothing else to locate it, so if the ring gear came really loose (they sometimes crack) it would fall away in a very obvious manner. This shrink fit is tight enough to transfer all the torque from the starter motor to the flywheel. It really is a tight grip.

If the ring gear was slightly loose, remember that with your pre-engaged starter, if there is a collision between the pinion and the ring gear, the pinion is trying to push the gear towards the gearbox. If the ring gear moved it would improve the engagement, not make it worse.

HTH

[English Gent]

Hello David, I think we must be at crossed understandings. My mean green starter pushes it's starter cog towards the gearbox. I think it's managed to push the teeth ring from the engine towards the gearbox. I put a gauge down the casing hole to the back of the teeth, then compared that to the available extension limit on the starter.

[David Sparkes]

Ah Ha, "crossed understandings" may well be correct.

When you wrote "my starter cog slides out just far enough to touch the back of the teeth rather than actually engage with them" I took back of the teeth to be the gearbox end of the teeth. I now suspect back of the teeth means the engine end of the teeth.

I thought the pinion was passing through the ring gear teeth, to just engage the chamfered end.

That understanding now appears wrong.

Well, always something to learn :-)

You could try fitting a standard inertia starter, where the pinion sits on the gearbox end of the teeth, but now the ring gear has moved there is the possibility that the teeth will be permanently engaged.

A physical trial fit seems the simplest way to check.

The alternative seems to be splitting the gearbox from the engine, removing the flywheel, and 'fixing' the ring gear.

Fixing could be removing the existing one (if you can get it off completely), turning the ring gear over (so the tooth chamfer faces the engine) and refitting. This will now suit your pre-engaged starter.

Note that the traditional way of removing a worn ring gear is to destroy it by a sharp chisel blow between any two teeth, which cracks the ring gear. I doubt new ones are expensive, but they might be a Land Rover part.

Fixing could be tapping the ring gear back into place (I suggest a copper or lead hammer), then reverting to an inertia starter.

You'll let us know the solution that works, won't you? This is going to remain in the memory bank :-)

HTH

[English Gent]

Erm, Sorry David, it was the final straw for me, I wasn't using her as I used to. For a few years she's just been a shopping trolley that only made sense as long as she was running.

I've done a scrappage deal on a Panda.

One or two people have said 'You'll have another within 12 months'

[David Sparkes]

I've done a scrappage deal on a Panda.

One or two people have said 'You'll have another within 12 months'

Do they still do the 4x4 Panda version? I understand they are quite impressive machines, once you accept they aren't for ram raiding or towing. As a shopping trolley able to cope with the more extreme weather we are being promised for future winters they would do fine, I think!

[English Gent]

Yes David, they still do a 4x4 version, a petrol and a diesel. However, I'm a bit skint, so went for the cheapest possible option of a 1.1 for £5000. Ideally had the landy been a simple fix I would've sold it on and bought a cheaper second hand Panda. For what it's worth, my £5000 would've got me an 2005 petrol 4x4. For the moment I shall see how I get on with the little Panda and maybe change to a 4x4 at some later date?