Chicken Drumstick

I would concur. I know a lot of people with Defenders. Farmers and enthusiasts. Nearly all of them go off road to some extent. Many of them frequently.

I’ve found over the years. That many people on forums claims such things as this. I’d truly love to know where you are getting your facts and figures from? Do you have any reference data to how many of these vehicle are or aren’t used off road? I have certainly never seen anything. However I would counter and say there are hundreds, if not thousands of videos on YouTube showing these vehicles being used off road by their owners. Which is remarkably odd if you are correct and almost nobody actually does this. Maybe there are far more special effects professionals among us than off roaders I would also say I’m a member of Jeep and Suzuki forums. And from the membership on those, it would appear a very healthy percentage of vehicles are taken off road. To support this, I’ve only had my Jimny 3 weeks now. And yes it has been off roaded.

I have been in two 3rd Gens. But not for a long time or for any distance. Also on road only. I would say they are similar but the new one is better in every single way. No bigger or heavier, more power, faster. Better traction control and a nicer interior. I believe the chassis, axles and suspension are quite similar on both.

The Skoda might be a good car. But it isn’t anything like a Defender. It’s a bit like saying you want a replacement for a Porsche 944 and are considering a diesel BMW 3 Series saloon. Surly the closest alternative to a Defender is a Jeep Wrangler.

Now, I know this is a Land Rover forum, however I'd assume (or at least hope), that most Land Rover owners are also avid 4x4 and off road enthusiasts also. Therefore being interested in all things 4wd. Using this rational and the fact Land Rover seems completely reluctant to offer a rugged 4x4 these days, forcing potential buyers to shop elsewhere. I thought some of you might find this of interest. If not, you can always skip to the next thread..... ____________________________________________________ Living with a Jimny – The 2 week Road-test Review I have had my Jimny for two weeks now. Yes, that’s right, it is mine. Undoubtedly this review will be slightly biased. However, having now spent 25 hours or more seat time and over 650 miles covered. I suspect I’m well placed to offer an initial opinion. Remember many motoring journalists may only get a few hours or a day with a vehicle to review it. I’ll dive straight in and say it is an extremely pleasing and satisfying vehicle to pilot. It isn’t 100% perfect, but no car is. However, it is getting rather close for me, with only a few minor niggles or complaints. This is purely an ‘on-road’ review at this stage. The vehicle will be going off road, but it has been far to wet and muddy to get something I own completely filthy off road. Therefore, an ‘off-road’ review will be following this article in due course. The Jimny is an Ivory Chiffon SZ5 5-speed manual. Therefore, comes with all the toys offered in the UK for the Jimny. The interior is a very pleasant place to be, the seats are squishy, but very comfortable. They are also heated and will cook your behind, they really do get rather toasty. My previous daily driver, a Smart ForTwo Prime Sport of 2017 vintage also had superb heated seats, that also heated the lower portion of the seat back. Unfortunately, the Jimny seems confined to only heating the seat base. A shame for certain, but certainly not a deal breaker. There is ample headroom in the Jimny, not that I worry about such things, being more akin to Richard Hammond in height than that of most average Britons. And there is also ample elbow room, provided you are of a regular girth. The Jimny’s external width is quite narrow, and therefore so is its interior. Large people may end up at rather close quarters to each other. The rest of the cabin is airy and generally a pleasant place to be. The door trims are simple plastic but fit the character of the car. The dash top is of a very nice stippled material. Which would have gone well in other places in the interior. However, the interior is my only real complaint. Not in its materials though. Just a general lack of cubby storage. For instance, there is small tray below the dash in front of the gearstick. Conveniently placed near the only USB port. Hooray, somewhere to place your smartphone. Yet, alas no. The tray is fine for a decade old iPhone 5, but a modern larger phone does not fit. Come on Suzuki, how can you make such a basic error! It is unforgivable, well almost. While on this subject, the lack of USB ports is also somewhat of a shame. There is a 12v power outlet next to the USB port and a second 12v socket in the boot, which will be handy for a cooler/fridge when out laning or similar. But in a modern car, you are likely to want maybe four or five USB ports; smartphone, passengers smartphone, iPad (for mapping duties when overlanding/laning), dashcam and so on. My only other niggle with the interior, which some might sight is petty are the sun visors. They leave a large gap between the left edge (right hand drive car) and the interior mirror. Allowing that pesky low sun at this time of year to easily shine right past. The rest of the interior carries no complaints, the Jimny comes reasonably well specced with Cruise Control/Speed Limiter, Climate Control, leccy windows, heated mirrors and central dashboard touchscreen with in-built Navigation, DAB radio and Apple CarPlay support. In terms of driver focused interior components. The steering wheel is a work of art. Thin rimmed, nice grippy material and very comfortable to hold and rotate. Lots of room for your fingers and easy to reach controls. It must be one of the nicest modern steering wheels I’ve had my hands on. Mercedes-Benz, please take note. I recently drove a brand new GLA and my lasting impression is what a ghastly, uncomfortable, horrid steering wheel it had, with absolutely nowhere to put your fingers! The gearbox in the Jimny is a joy to behold too. The standard gearknob may not look all that pretty, but in the hand, it is comfortable to use. The gearbox itself is also one of the sweetest I have stirred. It makes you want to shift cogs, even if you don’t need too. The pedals are also well placed with sensible grippy pads, something I’m sure I will appreciate even more when off road and driving with muddy boots. The handbrake is also placed exactly where you hand lands, allowing you to easily use it without the need to look down to find it. The boot is laughably small on these. But this should come as no surprise to anyone. The Jimny has two rows of seats and a longitudinal mounted engine. All packaged into a vehicle that is only 140” in long. Fortunately the rear seats fold down quickly and easily. Offering up a fairly large load area for such a small vehicle. Enough of the interior, what is it like on the open road? Well, I have read many a review and comment posted across the inter-web. And I often see people saying things like skittering over bumps, rolling in corners, uncomfortable, crashy suspension and other such stereotypical nonsense many 4x4’s get associated with. However, I must wonder if some of these people have actually been in the vehicle they are claiming to be reviewing? As my personal experience couldn’t be further from this. To give a little parody to this, on the day I collected my Jimny I also drove my then 2017 Smart ForTwo as well as a brand new Mercedes GLA200 (had 26 miles on the clock). Out of the three vehicles, the Jimny is easily the most comfortable and I’d argue rode nicer than the GLA did. The Mercedes was shod with massive alloys and low-profile tyres and every imperfection in the road, and I do mean every. Was transmitted into the cabin with a very audible “thump”. Which was felt throughout the entire car. The Jimny positively glides over the same roads. Yes, some may accuse me of being biased and having a personal stake in the Jimny. But at the end of the day, all I can do is report my findings and offer my opinion. And based on this, I’d rather ride in the archaic live axle vehicle, if comfort was a concern, despite popular opinion found across the internet. I admit there are some rare occasions where a particular road surface does give a particular sensation, most likely due to the short wheelbase combined with live axles. However, I would still say the ride comfort is still very, very good. And if you are complaining about it, then you’d not like over 90% of the cars on the roads either. There really is nothing wrong at all with how they ride. So, what about the handling I hear you ask? Well, here again I may be labelled as biased. Although, I’d much prefer to use the term experienced. I have grown up with 4x4’s. My first “car” was a Defender 90 way back in 1997. And since then I have owned a good number of 4-wheel drives from Land Rover and Jeep and driven many more besides. While not wanting to sound big headed, I suspect many people less familiar with off road vehicles simply don’t grasp that a live axle vehicle will feel somewhat different in the corners compared to a vehicle running independent suspension at each corner. In direct regard to the Jimny, I have found it to be most pleasing and exciting out on the country roads. It handles really well and is a huge amount of fun. From the inside it certainly doesn’t feel like it is leaning and rolling excessively or uncontrollably. Which completely baffles me when people claim that it does. I’ll go as far to say, that I have enjoyed driving it as much as any sports car I’ve been in. In reality you won’t be making the same kind of progress or speed. But you’d never know you this from the driver’s seat unless looking at the speedo. You truly feel like you are flying along. For anyone experienced with how well a Defender 90 can tackle British B-roads, the Jimny drives in much the same way, but feels lighter and more nimble. The steering may lack feedback for some, but the rest of the chassis communicates well and will reward a smooth driving style. To which the wonderful gearbox compliments this experience tenfold. The engine is rather a peach too, on paper a 1.5 litre naturally aspirated inline 4 with only 100hp or so, doesn’t sound all that much. But it is super smooth, very characterful and will pull from nothing. Sub 1500rpm kind of nothing in any of the 5 forward gears. With plenty of mid-range punch and will, unlike many modern turbo units happily, rev out to the red line. Obviously with only 100’ish bhp on tap, even for a vehicle weighing just over a tonne, the Jimny is never going to be a rocketship. That said, it actually has a respectable power to weight ratio when you look at certain sporty hatchbacks and sports cars from yesteryear. But here the Jimny has another party trick, the engine makes a surprisingly nice rumble above 3500rpm, one of the nicer sounding inline 4’s I’ve encountered. The engine has wonderful character and eagerness. This eagerness makes you believe and feel that it is accelerating far quicker than you actually are. Which is rather ideal out on the public roads and simply adds to the already high levels of fun. This is truly a vehicle to make you smile, while remaining at fairly sane and legal speeds. On the subject of speed, the Jimny is no motorway cruiser. While it will happily sit at motorway speed; 70mph is nearing 3500rpm on the tacho and wind noise picks up too. However, sit at 60-65mph and it is very comfortable. But you need to change your mindset to simply not care about other cars buzzing past you. In reality you’ll probably get where you are going in almost the same time anyhow. And more than likely you’ll be doing it with a bigger smile on your face than most. Do I recommend the 4th Generation Jimny? Absolutely!

Maybe not the best video in the world, but I wouldn't exactly use the words freaky handling or sluggish to describe it.

Well I’ve just spent an hour driving home in mine. I simply cannot relate to the experience you are suggesting. Maybe something was wrong with her one if it was that bad. Certainly something doesn’t tally.

But isn’t that a bit like saying driving an MX-5 felt horrible driving it at 50mph over a ploughed field. methinks lack of driver ability and common sense is to blame. Not the attributes of the vehicle. But maybe they are the sort of person who tries to hammer screws into wood...... Cause it works when they use nails.

As a counter opinion. I have a new Jimny. Had it 3 weeks and spent some 38 hours in it and over 900 miles. Not sure it is really a direct Freelander alternative. I certainly wouldn’t have considered a Freelander for my use at any rate (despite liking them). However I find some of the comments quite baffling. It is really really quiet. Trundling about at anything below 60mph and it is near silent. The loudest thing is the heater fan. I’m staggered how silent it is. At 70mph there is a bit more noise and it will be more happy at 65mph. But it certainly isn’t any louder than a Freelander at that speed. As for the performance. I think it feels really peppy. It’s a lovely engine, super smooth. Pulls from nothing and will eagerly rev to the red line. It isn’t the last word in performance. But it feels significantly more spritely than a Td4 or 1.8i Freelander. And carries a better power to weight ratio. In fact it has a similar power to weight ratio as a MINI Cooper convertible (not the current one the previous shape). Also no idea what is meant by freaky handling. It’s nimble, stable and fun in the corners. Feels like a Defender 90 that has lost half - three quarters of a tonne of weight.

Lol. I was thinking more along the lines of this with a few options on it.

Are the pickups really that cheap these days? Sure there are cheaper offerings, but they also run to $80-100k if you want. They are well specced too, some very fast and depending on model and spec can tow in excess of 30,000lbs!!!! That's getting on for 14 tonnes. Which is more than the corn carts I haul at harvest with a JCB Fastrac. As for pricing, Land Rover already build here and ship to the USA, then sell it for less than they charge here. Has been going on for decades. And besides, any LR pickup doesn't need to directly compete against every potential F150 or Silverado sale. They only need to tempt enough to be successful. Even Honda build and sell a pickup for the US market. And pickups are everywhere over there. Probably the most common vehicle on the roads. Ford sold 900,000 pickups last year in the USA. Between the top 5 that is over 3 million trucks. If Land Rover managed even 1/2 % of this, that would be 15,000 vehicle. And for a company that only currently sells 70-90k a year in the USA, would be a significant increase in volume. And if it proves a good seller, JLR should do what every other car makers does in the USA. Open up a plant and build locally. Why Rover/Leyland/BMC/BL/Austin Rover never did this, beggars belief.

Yet despite what you are saying. I'm amazed Land Rover want no part of such a market at all. Surely if each vehicle is profitable and they sell some, it would still be a win win. And why LR never made a pickup variant of the D3/4 for the US market I'll never know. Pickups are mainstream over there. And they don't need to compete at all with the big companies to be successful. They could sell loads (relatively speaking) for LR.

I'm not so convinced on this. I know it is the thing Suzuki UK are tauting in the motoring media. However the Jimny is only 154g/km of Co2. Which I suspect makes it one of the lower polluting 4x4's on the market. e.g. Jeep Wrangler 197-213g/km Land Cruiser 199-207g/km Evoque 143-188g/km Suzuki make a range of low emission cars. They are only importing 750 Jimny's to the UK this year. I truly struggle to see how the figures stack up to the claim being made. Jimny's are also in short supply in other markets, which I suspect is a bigger reason. They would rather supply those markets than the UK.

Lol. You removed the bit about FCA..... I’ve just done some Googling and it would seem JLR are of comparable size to Subaru. Think LR shifted just under 1/2 million cars globally last year and Jag just under 200,000. I will concede many of these middle sized companies are often backed by larger ones, eg Jeep with FCA. Or even the likes of Bentley with VAG. However I still can’t see this as a real reason. Land Rover as mentioned previously already had a good platform in the outgoing model. They didn’t need to reinvent the wheel in order to modernise it. Land Rover also has all the tech from the dual chassis D3/4 and RRS technology. Which I’m sure could have been easily adapted to live axles. Someone else cited Lotus. A great example. And let’s not forget Tesla. Basically a start-up company that has produced more than one bespoke platform. And then there is partnering. Ford and Mazda do this. Ford and PSA have done too. Renault and Nissan. Nissan and Mercedes. BMW and Morgan. Fiat and Ford. Subaru and Toyota. JLR could have probably done something in this area too. And even if not a joint development of a Defender platform. Maybe they could have partnered or bought in engines, instead of developing their own. Money saved could have been invested in a new platform.

Jeep themselves are not so big a company. These days they are of course backed by FCA. But that aside. The CJ7 was replaced with the all new YJ Wrangler in 1987. And again in 1997 with the coil sprung TJ. Then the JK in 2007 and the JL in 2018. They are all clearly the same vehicle. Having not lost their heritage or design ethos. Jeep have alongside introduced many other models over the years to cater for different market sectors. But the Wrangler has remained very true to the 1940’s original. I simply cannot see any reason why Land Rover could not have done similar.

Isn’t that building and selling cars 101. As in what every single other car maker contends with. Again, what logical rational are you applying that make Land Rover such a unique company and so different and unable to do what everyone else does????

Lol your 1st paragraph might be an example of your 2nd On a serious note. Why do you think Land Rover are a special case and unable to do what EVERY other car maker the globe over does? There bigger, smaller and similar sized automakers out there. LR are not really all that unique. And besides they seem plenty capable enough to churn out plenty of different vehicles already. As well as develop their own engines rather than use someone else’s or co-develop with another car manufacturer.

Why does Land Rover need to be competitive on a global scales for mass produced vehicles??? Surely good business is simply making money. Newsflash. Not every company can be the biggest or hold the number 1 spot. But this is no reason a company should just give up. They can still be highly successful, even if smaller than some others.

In the off road world the Defender (and Wrangler and Jimny) are akin to the Elises and Caterhams of the car world. Specials machines, more heavily compromised, more rewarding. And much more focused as their primary intended design direction. You are missing the point if you think I'm referring only to the driving aspect. The Elise analogy is exactly that. If you take away everything that makes it an Elise, is it really an Elise?? QED... is it really a Defender.... if you have removed everything that made it one in the first place. BTW the original idea of the Land Rover was as an alternative to a farm tractor. Wasn't it one of the Wilks that say PTO's everywhere...... Ultimately it was a failed concept, in exactly the same way the AgriJeep from a few years before the Land Rover existed, also failed. Jeep continued to have some military success for a few decades, but ultimately found a place for their vehicle as a Recreational Vehicle for enthusiasts. Something you might own instead of a sports car (or muscle car in the USA). You'd buy one, because you wanted one, you wanted the image and the lifestyle associated with them. The Land Rover also found a home with military and services and for longer than the Jeep did. However in the smaller and more congested UK with smaller farms and roads. They also found a place in the utility market. Where in the USA bigger pickup trucks already dominated. But as the years rolled by, the Land Rover was also very much a recreational vehicle and lifestyle vehicle too. Hence things like the Association of Land Rover Clubs (formerly the ARC and prior to that the Land Rover Owners Club of 1955). The ALRC has over 10,000 members in the UK over 37 clubs and 10 international clubs from across the globe. People don't just buy a proper a Land Rover to move stuff. This hasn't been the case since the early 1950's.

But the all new platforms have followed the ethos and design trends of the previous model. And by and large the styling and function. For instance the 1940's Willis GP1 was a ladder chassis, body on frame, live axle, flat fender top off roader. The current Wrangler JL which has only been out for about 2 years is also a ladder chassis, body on frame, live axle off roader. That still has proper round headlights and flat fender tops. You can even lift the roof and doors off it. Even the blooming windscreen folds down, much like the original WW2 era vehicle!! And people love it. Look at these sales figures for the past 5 years in the USA alone! 2019 228.042 2018 240.032 2017 190.522 2016 191.788 2015 202.702 2014 175.328 Let's call that 200,000 per year on average. Now if Land Rover could even generate/take 5% of that (10,000), it would be a huge difference to LR sales. Especially in the US, e.g. Land Rover All Models Market Share 2019 94.736 0,55% 2018 92.143 0,53% 2017 74.739 0,43% 2016 73.858 0,42% 2015 70.582 0,40% 2014 51.465 0,31% I have no doubts this new Pretender will indeed sell well over there, but I do suspect (and history will prove me right or wrong in time), that it will be at the cost of Discovery 5, Velar and RRS sales. Just take those numbers in again. Jeep sell 2 - 2 1/2 times more Wranglers in the USA than Land Rover sell of all of their models combined.

Surely LR already have a platform...... the outgoing Defender. Absolutely nothing wrong with the suspension on them or how they rode or handled. The only bit that was old, was the labour intensive welded chassis. And the multi section mechano body. A Hydroformed chassis to similar specs as a D1/2 or P38 with suspension from any of these (maybe with the option of air for higher end models) and links to live axles. Which would have been easy to solve, just buy Dana 44's like Jeep and others do. I'm lead to believe Dana had been building and supplying the Rover axles to JLR for a long time anyhow, so the relationship was/is already there. So all they'd need is a body tub to fit on it, which could easily have been a mild modification of the D7 platform. Considering other car makers of all sizes are able to build specific platforms, I can see no logical, sane, rational or financial reason why LR couldn't. The only reason I can think of, is purely marking and product placement.

Are they that small really? And if they are, should that allow them a great agility in the market place. Either way I struggle to see it as a real reason. Even Morgan have developed an entire new platform. And looking back a few years, LR could have had access to the Hydroformed F-Series truck chassis from Ford. I don't know what relationship still exists between the companies, but maybe there would have been scope to buy or co-develop something. Even more so considering Ford are bringing back the Bronco.

The Jimny has similar dimensions to an 88” Series one. But uses radius arm coil springs on the current and previous versions. Think front Defender setup all round. Works very well I can tell you. Done about 900 miles in 2 and a bit weeks in my new one. It is comfortable, rides well, very fun in the corners. Yet still retains the feel and ability of a 4x4. Land Rover really should have made something similar, just a bit bigger with a 100” wheelbase. btw the Jimny hails from the 1970 LJ. It is the models 50th anniversary this year. And you can guess where the J comes from. The Jimny, like the Defender has roots all the way back to the Willis. A Gen 1 LJ20: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1979_Suzuki_Jimny.jpg You can clearly see the lineage in the current model. edit: why do images sometimes not display???? Arrrgh!

100% I be unhappy about such an Elise. An Elise has nothing to do with lap times and designing a new car with that focus would be completely missing the point of the vehicle. It is all about the drive, feel, lightweight, steering and responsiveness. Something you simply can’t achieve with a “different” type of vehicle. This new Defender is exactly that problem. Not really sure what the nonsense is you are talking about carbs. Ffs I don’t think a single Defender ever had them. True to it’s heritage would be easy. Just make a modern version of the out going model. It’s not hard. Jeep have done it twice with the Wrangler in the past 15 years. The current JL Wrangler is supremely comfortable, speedy and a pleasant place to be. At least as nice as a D4 or even L322. Maybe not as plush, but just as nice. And with all of the modern gizmos. Yet it retains the classic styling queues dating back to the 1940s. Has live axles, body on frame and is designed as an off roader that has been made nice on road. Rather than an on roader that has been given some off road capability. The Wrangler sells in HUGE numbers too. And while a tad pricey in the UK. Starts for under $30k in the US. Mercedes also have kept true their heritage with the G-Wagen. And clearly sells well enough for them to keep updating it. And of course the Suzuki Jimny. A brilliant update on another classic model. 100% modern, yet still 100% true to its heritage and a proper 4x4. Which again world wide seems to be selling very well and is a desirably commodity. It will be interesting to see what the forthcoming Ford Bronco will be like. I suspect far truer to it’s roots than the Pretender is.