johninfront Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hi Guys, Got a 1996 300 tdi, the problem is starting from cold, fires when cranking, as soon as you let go of the key is cuts out, if you hold the starter in & catch it on the throttle, vehicle will run, turn it off & same problem again until engine warm - then ok. Any ideas?? Cheers John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 is it an auto or manual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johninfront Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hi Guys,Got a 1996 300 tdi, the problem is starting from cold, fires when cranking, as soon as you let go of the key is cuts out, if you hold the starter in & catch it on the throttle, vehicle will run, turn it off & same problem again until engine warm - then ok. Any ideas?? Cheers John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johninfront Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 is it an auto or manual? Automatic Cheers John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I presume then that it's the EDC model? with the fly-by-wire throttle. Which if that is the case it could be millions of things mostly to do with the dodgy electrics. The best way I've found to cure all the electrical problems I've had is to remove and re-insert the ecu a few times to clean up the contacts and to check the earth next to the ECU. If you do have the EDC model, then take of the kick panel to the side of the accelerator pedal, you should see the fairly big silver box which is the ECU, unplug that by lifting the silver bit on the plug, then reinsert it, repeat 3 or 4 times. Then you should also see an earth point behind the kick panel, undo that bolt, clean up and re-tighten. See if that sorts it. It could be something else but it doesn't cost anything to try that. The problems I had which are now fixed were: Won't start if I use glow plugs when warm No fuel on cold mornings (turns over fine but no fuel so it won't start) Check Engine Light coming on and revs dropping at certain points in the rev range All these were fixed after unplugging and re-inserting the ECU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Just sounds like a duff glow plug to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johninfront Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Just sounds like a duff glow plug to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRDISCOVERY Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 hi I know this might sound daft but are you not touching the throttle at all when it's cutting out, the way to start a diesel is hold the throttle flat on the floor as you turn the key and ease off as soon as it starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 hi I know this might sound daft but are you not touching the throttle at all when it's cutting out, the way to start a diesel is hold the throttle flat on the floor as you turn the key and ease off as soon as it starts. Eh? Most diesels I have ever come across are quite capable of starting without this and in fact I am sure I remember reading somewhere that on Tdis if you touch the throttle it disables the extra fuel for cold start... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I read somewhere on the EDC discos touching the throttle switches off the glow plugs as well. It says in the manual to start with no throttle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglad Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 hi I know this might sound daft but are you not touching the throttle at all when it's cutting out, the way to start a diesel is hold the throttle flat on the floor as you turn the key and ease off as soon as it starts. No no no. If you do that on an EDC model you WILL create problems. They are set-up to give an automatic small blip of revs when the engine starts and raised tickover speed. A tip for cold weather (-5 or lower) starting I found useful is this: turn the key to warm the glowplugs, then turn off and imediately warm the plugs again, before turning over the engine. Works every time on my TDI 300 auto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchman Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Also Check the Glow Plug Lead, had trouble last night starting and when it wouldn't start this morning opened the bonnet and found mine completely frayed through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRDISCOVERY Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Eh?Most diesels I have ever come across are quite capable of starting without this and in fact I am sure I remember reading somewhere that on Tdis if you touch the throttle it disables the extra fuel for cold start... well when you hold throttle to the floor is that not given it more fuel for a cold start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRDISCOVERY Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I read somewhere on the EDC discos touching the throttle switches off the glow plugs as well. It says in the manual to start with no throttle as soon as you turn the key from pre-heat position to starter position that cuts off the power to the glow plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRDISCOVERY Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Eh?Most diesels I have ever come across are quite capable of starting without this and in fact I am sure I remember reading somewhere that on Tdis if you touch the throttle it disables the extra fuel for cold start... well he's saying it wont start otherwise unless he touches the throttle so does that not tell you something. I have driven diesels for nearly 30 years including hgvs and i can tell you i have always started them this way. and if its really cold give it heat 2-3 times before you crank it over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 well he's saying it wont start otherwise unless he touches the throttle so does that not tell you something. I have driven diesels for nearly 30 years including hgvs and i can tell you i have always started them this way. and if its really cold give it heat 2-3 times before you crank it over. Yeah it tells me there is a problem with the vehicle and it is not performing normally. Not that this is the "correct" way to start I have started probably the best part of 1000 different Land Rover engines in the course of my 10 years at work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy_neutron Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 well he's saying it wont start otherwise unless he touches the throttle so does that not tell you something. I have driven diesels for nearly 30 years including hgvs and i can tell you i have always started them this way. and if its really cold give it heat 2-3 times before you crank it over. Yeah .. but we are talking about a direct injection engine. Indirect injection engines should be started as you describe, however direct injection engines and common rail engines should be started just like a petrol .. Turn key and hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRDISCOVERY Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Yeah .. but we are talking about a direct injection engine.Indirect injection engines should be started as you describe, however direct injection engines and common rail engines should be started just like a petrol .. Turn key and hope. it doesn't matter if its direct or indirect they will ALWAYS start better from cold with full throttle. just try it for yourself or ask any trucker as all HGVS are direct injection and if you listen to anyone starting a truck in the morning youll hear that this is how they start them.but if you just want to turn the key and hope for the best then good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRDISCOVERY Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Yeah it tells me there is a problem with the vehicle and it is not performing normally. Not that this is the "correct" way to start I have started probably the best part of 1000 different Land Rover engines in the course of my 10 years at work... well if it starts by using the throttle and it doesn't when you don't..........what can I say.....???????? I know what I would do and i'd be moving........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 OK well if you don't believe me here is the relevant passage from the Defender Tdi owners manual: "Before starting the engine and driving, ENSURE you are familiar with the precautions shown under ’Catalytic converter’ later in this section. In particular, you should be aware that continued use of the starter will result in unused fuel damaging the catalytic converter. 1. Check that the handbrake is applied and that the gear lever is in neutral. 2. Switch off all unnecessary electrical equipment. 3. Insert the starter key and turn the switch to position ’II’. Wait until the glow plug warning light extinguishes. NOTE: When restarting a warm engine, it will not be necessary to wait for the glow plug warning light to extinguish. 4. Turn the key to position ’III’ to operate the starter motor; DO NOT press the accelerator pedal during starting, and RELEASE THE KEY as soon as the engine is running." I think the last paragraph confirms my comments as I would have thought the people who built it ought to know what they are talking about. It should not be necessary on a properly functioning engine and if it is, then something is not right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRDISCOVERY Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 OK well if you don't believe me here is the relevant passage from the Defender Tdi owners manual:"Before starting the engine and driving, ENSURE you are familiar with the precautions shown under ’Catalytic converter’ later in this section. In particular, you should be aware that continued use of the starter will result in unused fuel damaging the catalytic converter. 1. Check that the handbrake is applied and that the gear lever is in neutral. 2. Switch off all unnecessary electrical equipment. 3. Insert the starter key and turn the switch to position ’II’. Wait until the glow plug warning light extinguishes. NOTE: When restarting a warm engine, it will not be necessary to wait for the glow plug warning light to extinguish. 4. Turn the key to position ’III’ to operate the starter motor; DO NOT press the accelerator pedal during starting, and RELEASE THE KEY as soon as the engine is running." I think the last paragraph confirms my comments as I would have thought the people who built it ought to know what they are talking about. It should not be necessary on a properly functioning engine and if it is, then something is not right! well if thats what it says obviously all these electronic "improvements" just lead to more things going wrong its a good job its not in the middle of the sahara or some remote jungle where needing it to start is important and you can't call the AA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebiglad Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 as soon as you turn the key from pre-heat position to starter position that cuts off the power to the glow plugs. I'm not sure but I think that's not right - I was given to understand that the glowplugs stay working after the engine has fired, to help with warm-up. Indeed, I can hear on my TDi300 edc the solenoid click off several seconds after the moto has fired up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comical Engineer Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 When starting a direct injection diesel, the glow plugs are not usually needed at all if the engine is reasonable condition. My non-EDC 300tdi manual will happily (& promptly) start down to about -5°C WITHOUT the use of glow plugs OR throttle. My modern all electronic Honda FRV 2.2 i-CTDI is the same, as was my previous Saab 3.0 TiD. The only engines that need glowplugs at moderate temperatures are old-type indirect injection engines, like the engine in my 1990 Golf GTD (pre-TDI). When the plugs failed on that it was cold start lever, full throttle & hope the battery was fully charged. That said, it would (and did) start on one working plug, albeit that it ran lumpily until it warmed up a bit. Needing to run the plugs 2-3 times before starting on a direct injection engine, I would personally be checking that they are all working, followed by the fuel injection system. The TD5 engine keeps the plugs on until the engine is warm in order to reduce emissions - no other reason. The 300tdi plugs [should] shut off immediately that the starter position is engaged by the key. Mine do. I would start by checking the glow plugs (easily done with a multi-meter) followed by the injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANO3528 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I've never waited for the plugs to warm up on mine, it starts when it's covered in frost and doesn't smoke anymore than on warm mornings. Foot on the clutch before starting to take the gearbox drag out of the equation though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I'm not sure but I think that's not right - I was given to understand that the glowplugs stay working after the engine has fired, to help with warm-up. Indeed, I can hear on my TDi300 edc the solenoid click off several seconds after the moto has fired up. I am pretty sure non EDC ones are the same - I will have to try it and see but I think you can see the lights brighten a little after a few seconds when the timer unit switches the plugs off and the battery voltage jumps. It doesn't switch them off when the heat light goes out, its a few seconds later than that. Foot on the clutch to reduce the load is an excellent idea and I always do it on any engines petrol or diesel. The paragraph quoted in my post above was actually from the owners handbook for a non EDC Defender Tdi which has no electronics at all. There's no AA here either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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