TheRecklessEngineer Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Just a quicky... Anyone know the correct thread size for male unions on a series? Ordered some generic 3/16ths 'imperial' ones from fleabay, female ones fit, but male ones don't... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 The brakes are 3/8 UNF, with 3/16 OD pipes. From memory these can be fitted (but not properly) to M10 fine threads, the male of one will fit the female of the other but not vice versa. I can't recall which is which though! Sounds like you've got metric threads, the "imperial" description may have been applied to the pipe diameter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 What year series. Up to series three will be BSF. Series three could be anything. BSF, UNF or metric. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4444244 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Hi The metric ones are M10x1.00 ie M10 fine, on the 109 (1984) the wheel cylinders are imperial, the flexis are metric, the other unions are metric too Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 The brakes are 3/8 UNF, with 3/16 OD pipes.From memory these can be fitted (but not properly) to M10 fine threads, the male of one will fit the female of the other but not vice versa. I can't recall which is which though! .... Fortunately the Series 3 workshop manual can help. In the Data section (NOT the Brakes section) there is a comprehensive write up on the visible differences between Metric and UNF fittings. The relavant sentances read: "The greatest danger lies with confusion of 10mm and 3/16th UNF (male) pipe nuts used for 3/16th (4.75mm) pipe. The 3/16UNF (male) pipe nut or hose can be screwed into a 10mm port but is very slack and easily stripped. The thread engagement is very weak and cannot provide an adequate seal." I'll attach the relevant two pages, but will just make one observation. When the changeover was 'new', in the '70s, all the differentiation marks, such as the M and the O's were in place. Nowadays some are missing, as it's cheaper to produce items without them. So items bought new today may not conform exactly to the detail in the Manual. In addition, there has been 30 years for a PO, or their Mechanic, to have changed the original with whatever he had to hand. Also, mmgemini wrote "Up to series three will be BSF." I don't think Series 2 stuff used BSF for hydraulic pipe fittings, could you confirm your statement please Mike? Cheers S3_Data__Metric_Fittings.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Nice one David! Also note metric and imperial flares are different. I've only ever once been asked to supply BSF pipe fittings, that was for a pre- or early post- war car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Fortunately the Series 3 workshop manual can help.In the Data section (NOT the Brakes section) there is a comprehensive write up on the visible differences between Metric and UNF fittings. The relavant sentances read: "The greatest danger lies with confusion of 10mm and 3/16th UNF (male) pipe nuts used for 3/16th (4.75mm) pipe. The 3/16UNF (male) pipe nut or hose can be screwed into a 10mm port but is very slack and easily stripped. The thread engagement is very weak and cannot provide an adequate seal." I'll attach the relevant two pages, but will just make one observation. When the changeover was 'new', in the '70s, all the differentiation marks, such as the M and the O's were in place. Nowadays some are missing, as it's cheaper to produce items without them. So items bought new today may not conform exactly to the detail in the Manual. In addition, there has been 30 years for a PO, or their Mechanic, to have changed the original with whatever he had to hand. Also, mmgemini wrote "Up to series three will be BSF." I don't think Series 2 stuff used BSF for hydraulic pipe fittings, could you confirm your statement please Mike? Cheers If they didn't use BSF what did they use ?? Working on the principle that that was the usual thread size at the time and that was the thread size my Morris Minor 1000 used, yes I do have some of those unions, Also over the years ANYTHING could now be fitted. I know in the 1970's when Ford first used metric on the Transit we would fot a UNF wheel cylinder if we couldn't get a metric one and make the pipes to suit. Remember this country didn't go metric completly in the 1970's. 1972 or 3 was it the money changed. Threads much later. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 If they didn't use BSF what did they use ?? On the brake pipes - UNF. Generally UNF Nuts & Bolts started appearing on some British cars (eg Riley) in the mid-fifties, and BSF nuts & bolts continued on Series until the '80s. Maybe Series I had BSF pipe nuts????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 So what are these things I have in the garage ?? They certainly aren't UNF....... BSP ???? Old man Whitworth must be turning in has grave with all these different thread sizes now. mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Old man Whitworth must be turning in has grave with all these different thread sizes now.mike Oh I don't know, from my reading of his life story, 'old man Whitworth' was at the cutting edge of technology, in his day, which is how we got standardised threads and various other innovations. He could be regarded as the Bill Gates of his day, as he certainly didn't miss a Market Opportunity to sell his bright ideas. Cheers. Oops. Edited to say I've just been to pull the book off the shelf, and realised I was thinking of WG Armstrong, a contemporary and rival gun manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 So what are these things I have in the garage ??.... Pass. What did they come off? Any chance of a pic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Oh I don't know, from my reading of his life story, 'old man Whitworth' was at the cutting edge of technology, in his day, which is how we got standardised threads and various other innovations. He could be regarded as the Bill Gates of his day, as he certainly didn't miss a Market Opportunity to sell his bright ideas.Cheers. Oops. Edited to say I've just been to pull the book off the shelf, and realised I was thinking of WG Armstrong, a contemporary and rival gun manufacturer. Only the British could specify spanners by thread size and then use two different head sizes on a given thread! Armstrong - his house was stuffed with mechanical innovations, that's one place I'd love to visit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I've not had the opotunity to visit the inside of the house. Some of the model ships on display are awsome at Gragside. How about arranging a forum visit there ?? mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Just doing some research on Mike's suggestion, it appears there are two sites that could be combined on one trip; Cragside, and Bamburgh Castle, which apparently contains an Armstrong Museum. From http://www.victorianweb.org/technology/eng.../armstrong.html In later years Armstrong and his wife Margaret lived at Cragside, near Rothbury, Northumberland. For some architecture and garden details see http://www.victorianweb.org/art/architectu...rmanshaw/2.html and http://www.ejr.ndo.co.uk/crag.html For some technical detail see http://www.hevac-heritage.org/items_of_int...de/cragside.htm National Trust page of the Cragside site http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/...ardenandestate/ Bamburgh Castle http://www.theheritagetrail.co.uk/castles/...gh%20castle.htm http://www.bamburghcastle.com/ http://www.bamburghcastle.com/armstrong-museum.html Streetmap http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G...amp;A=Y&Z=8 shows the Castle, and you can see Rothley (Cragside) as well, just to give people an idea of location. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Will that be a weekend do ? As some of you will know Armstrongs also built warships. As did Hawthorn-Lesley both on the River Tyne. During the Russian Japanise war these ships fought battles. One builer on the Russian side. The other buildr on the Japanise side. I can't remember which was which. That was in the days when ships were built on the Tyne. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 *Groans* Well...I've just fitted new **itpart cylinders. The unions from the old pipework fit, but are different to the new unions I have. Guess Ill buy UNF, BSP and metric...one of them will fit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 *Groans*Well...I've just fitted new **itpart cylinders. The unions from the old pipework fit, but are different to the new unions I have. Guess Ill buy UNF, BSP and metric...one of them will fit! I'd go with UNF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Will that be a weekend do ?As some of you will know Armstrongs also built warships. As did Hawthorn-Lesley both on the River Tyne. During the Russian Japanise war these ships fought battles. One builer on the Russian side. The other buildr on the Japanise side. I can't remember which was which. That was in the days when ships were built on the Tyne. mike Well, having 'very recently' (this morning!) skimmed through the WG Armstrong book, it was Armstrong who supplied several ships to the Japanese. Re weekend or not, I'd like to hear if someone local had recently visited both sites, to get a recent report on how much engineering stuff is at each site. (Recent means say within the last 3 to 5 years). I visited Cragside about 12 or more years ago, and was disappointed about how little detail there was about the engineering works. The National Trust seemed to be strong on the 'soft' arts of garden, plants, and house, but if you didn't know how hydraulics worked before you visited you certainly would not be educated while there. The Techie pictures on one of the sites I listed earlier makes it appear they have done a little bit more to cover the engineering aspect of Armstrong's life there. The bottom line here is I don't know how long each visit would take, but this would also be influenced by who in the party wanted to visit what, ie Cragside gardens, the rest of the Castle, etc. I don't know anything about Campsites or B&B, or local Green Lanes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Although I'm fairly local I have no idea of lanes. I'll ask my youngest girl. Margaret, my wife will soon find a camp site. I seem to remermber a local news program on them repairing/refurbising the plant pot/watering system for the greenhouse but I can't remember a lot of detail. If it was Armstrong that supplied the Japanese ships. The Hawthorn-Lesley, did I put that the other way this morning, that supplied the Russians. The new Tyne bridge is worth a close look as well. It's a 1/3 scale model of the Sydney Harbour bridge. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 I've just got around to looking at the front brakes - the rest of the system is 3/8 UNF (24tpi), however the 'distribution block' on the LH chassis rail has 3/8 UNF for the rear, but something entirely different for the fronts - they are considerably larger. Large enough in fact to slide a 3/8 UNF union in without engaging any of the threads. Anyone know what size this might be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I've just got around to looking at the front brakes - the rest of the system is 3/8 UNF (24tpi), however the 'distribution block' on the LH chassis rail has 3/8 UNF for the rear, but something entirely different for the fronts - they are considerably larger. Large enough in fact to slide a 3/8 UNF union in without engaging any of the threads. Anyone know what size this might be? Yes, its 7/16"UNF for a 3/16" pipe. As to BSF on brake pipes, well that had gone by 1956 on 2 series 1's that i had, if it was ever used. As the size adaptor to fit late 3/8" threaded cylinders to early series 1's(cheaper & easier to get) with the 1/4" OD pipes is a series 3 clutch pipe adaptor which is UNF on both sizes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Thanks Phil. Am I right in thinking 24tpi is UNF and 20tpi is BSF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Ignore me - just found this rather useful chart Thread size chart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
integerspin Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I think morris changed from bsf to unf around 1950, I rebuilt a 1948 morris oxford and it was bsf and I used to repair a 1953 moggy and it was UNF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.