Juz Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Hi All, At my last P&P day, the scrutineer suggested putting a second lightweight spring on the throttle of my 200tdi, so that if the main spring failed the throttle would still close when you took your foot off the pedal. Doers anyone have pics of how they have done it or suggestions on where to get a suitable spring? Cheers Juz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 it would close anyway as there's a spring on the pedal assembly, so I can't see any logic in fitting a 3rd spring, the pump spring returns the lever to the closed position too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallycinq Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Its a scruitineer thing, its required on MSA events, and has ben for years. Cheers David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 right just found the relevant section in my 2009 MSA blue book, seems the scrutineer concerned is trying to enforce this rule. common regs for competitors vehicle C Technical 10. Engines be equppied with a positive method of throttle closing by means of external spring so that in event of a failure of any part of the throttle linkage the throttle are sprung closed. if the vehicle has electronic throttle as standard manufacturers equipment the vehicle is exempt from the requirement to fit extra springs. doubt a P+P site would have a MSA permit or any other MSA requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Its a scruitineer thing, its required on MSA events, and has ben for years.Cheers David It never has been either an RAC or as now an MSA requirement. As Ralph posts all that is required is a spring on the outside of the throttle spindle. Another spring will be required on a series with rod throttle linkage because the return spring is not on the throttle spoindle. Also one is required on some Webber carbs with the internal spirings fitted. The scrutineer needs to see one spring on the every throttle spindle. mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 right just found the relevant section in my 2009 MSA blue book, seems the scrutineer concerned is trying to enforce this rule.common regs for competitors vehicle C Technical 10. Engines be equpiied with a positive method of throttle closing by means of external spring so that in event of a failure of any part of the throttle linkage the throttle are sprung closed. if the vehicle has elcetornic throttle as standard manufacturers equipment the vehicle is exempt from the requirement to fit extra springs. doubt a P+P site would have a MSA permit or any other MSA requirements. this is how i've done my 200tdi disco spring for doing MSA RTVs my partner hates driving my 90 as the throttle is too heavy but i like it with the spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallycinq Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 It never has been either an RAC or as now an MSA requirement.As Ralph posts all that is required is a spring on the outside of the throttle spindle. Another spring will be required on a series with rod throttle linkage because the return spring is not on the throttle spoindle. Also one is required on some Webber carbs with the internal spirings fitted. The scrutineer needs to see one spring on the every throttle spindle. mike. Quite correct, I should have expanded my shorthand answer. I only got my 200TDi yesterday so am not fully aware of the throttle springing arrangements. We used to have to do it on the rally cars, although now with cable operated fuel injection there is already an external spring, so not needed. Cheers David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Quite correct, I should have expanded my shorthand answer. I only got my 200TDi yesterday so am not fully aware of the throttle springing arrangements.We used to have to do it on the rally cars, although now with cable operated fuel injection there is already an external spring, so not needed. Cheers David I am rather long in the tooth.... It was jounalists and club scrutinneers that didn't read the regulation correctly. Now I've just had a look through my Blue Books...I can find nothing about throttle springs in the 1979/ 1980 blue book. However the 1980/ 1981 blue book on page 156 Regulation QH 1. Engine 1, (a) be equiped with a positive method of THROTTLE closing, in the event of linkage failure, by beans of an external spring to each throttle spindle. (B) if fitted with a Different Engine.................... Interestingly. I've never seen one of those hairpin type springs as fitted to the 200Tdi and the 300Tdi injection pump fain. I've seen plenty linear type springs fail. So much so that when I was working I carried a few in my spares box. Not much change there then is there ? Mike Hingley Assistant C of C Stocktonian Rally 1982 C of C Stocktonian Rally 1983/ 84/ 85. Scrutineer on various Autotests and Road Rallys in those days. I think I know my Blue Book. I'd be interested to know what the same scrutineer said about the battery earth lead. ; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juz Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 For clarity, the scrutineer did not say it was required. It was something he recommended. Juz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 For clarity, the scrutineer did not say it was required. It was something he recommended.Juz No comment on the earth lead then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juz Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 No comment on the earth lead then ? No. Why? What would you expect him to say? Juz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallycinq Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 No. Why?What would you expect him to say? Juz IIRC it should be yellow. Cheers David (perennial competitor and sworn enemy of the scroot) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 when i started with the cornwall and devon i was told the i had to have a second spring to pass scrutineering, some of the people who do the scrutineering do feel the diesels do not need it, but as it's in the rules thay have to make shore its there. last year we did have a V8 autos trottle stick open even with the second spring luckly he hit the trees not the spectators. having the second spring hasn't made my 90 harder to drive so i wouldn't worry about putting one on if you want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 if the vehicle concerned has been MSA logged book & isn't a normal use daily vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 right just found the relevant section in my 2009 MSA blue book, seems the scrutineer concerned is trying to enforce this rule.common regs for competitors vehicle C Technical 10. Engines be equppied with a positive method of throttle closing by means of external spring so that in event of a failure of any part of the throttle linkage the throttle are sprung closed. if the vehicle has electronic throttle as standard manufacturers equipment the vehicle is exempt from the requirement to fit extra springs. doubt a P+P site would have a MSA permit or any other MSA requirements. in my 2007 hand book(can't find my 2008 one) its worded Throttle Return Spring There must be at least one spring in place on the final linkage andact on directly on each butterfly spindle, control lever on a diesel engine pump, or the throttle control lever on petrol injetion system. if the manufacturer fits one in that position, then an additional one is not required. if there is not a manufacturer-fitted spring there,such as many land rover series 1s, then you will need to fit one. later vehicles with the "fly-by-wire" throttle system having no moving parts other than the accelerator pedal itself do not need a spring; indeed there is nowhere to fit a spring anyway. the electronic system will set the engine to idle in case of any electrical failure. the previous requirement for an EXTRA spring is no longer appicable unless SRs state otherwise. so the way thats worded to me would say that a diesel dosen't need the extra spring but thay do check at scrutineering so i'll leave mine on for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 pic of the one I fitted (300tdi) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 There never has ever been a requirement for an extra spring on the throttle spindle. Yes the battery earth cable unless easily identifiable should be marked yellow. Bets the battery wasn't checked Or the holes in the bulkhead. Your 2008 handbook is like mine. Out of date However that wording hasn't changed since the days of QH. You must remember now the Blue Book isn't just a set of regulations. It's now a legal document. When I was rallying. The MSA decreed that for road rallys you could only have two carb chokes. So I turned up at the Otley Grand Prix. The Coleman Rally. For scrutineering. My 1300cc Sunbeam ran two Stromburg carbs. The scrutiner says" You can't run that, it's got two carbs" I'm reaching inside for my Blue Book as the C of C Steve Kemp walks aver and asked if I had a problem. So I told him about the carbs. He looked at the scrutineer and asked if everything else was alright. The scrutinerr said it was. Steve took the scrutineering sheet off the scrutineer and signed it, then gave it to me. Like I said earlier. Scrutineering and knowing the Blue Book are two different things. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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