The Badger Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Ok, just a quick overview really as this issue could be either really simple, or painfully difficult. Trying to start my new build, it's all good up until I try to turn the starter over, then I just get a click and all the power cuts out? The loom I have used usually has an immobilizer, but I don't have one and don't intend fitting one either. I have run an earth cable from the negative on the solenoid that links to the starter, all the way back to the earth bolt on the chassis with still no luck? Also the indicators and headlight high beam flash don't work, all other electrics do though? I this just a bad earth, or is there some link I need to do with the wire that usually goes to the immobilizer? On the wiring diagram there are wires that goes through the immobilizer to the starter. Or, have I just wired something wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jericho Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Trying to start my new build, it's all good up until I try to turn the starter over, then I just get a click and all the power cuts out I have run an earth cable from the negative on the solenoid that links to the starter, all the way back to the earth bolt on the chassis with still no luck? Don't know what engine/vehicle this is,but most starter solenoids have no negative terminals. There is a switched live in from the ignition switch/starter button, a live feed in from the battery, and a live out to the starter motor. Earthing of the solenoid and motor is through their casings to the engind block,or flywheel housing. Perhaps I have mis-understood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Have you changed the engine on the end of the loom from petrol to diesel or vice versa? How have you bypassed the immobiliser connections? Jericho's description is spot on for the starter wiring. The starter switch to solenoid line is brown/yellow. The main beam flash (purple wire, fed from fuse 11) and indicators (fed from fuse 10, green wire) don't have much wiring in common. Have you checked the fuses? Do the indicators work when you put the hazards on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Jericho's description is spot on for the starter wiring. The click is probable the solinoid working. There should be 2 big electrical connectors on the back of the solinoid and a smaller spade terminal. The spade terminal will be the small wire back to the ignition switch, this would seem to work as you are getting a click. The two big terminals are battery in and out to the actual motor of the starter. The feed in is probable good as you are getting a click, although if it is there but not very good it is possible it is not letting enough though to turn the motor over. The out to the motor shouldn't need touching but worth a look just to make sure it is tight, not always very good access with the starter motor in situ. On some vehicles they are sealed inside the starter but not on any land rover ones I have seen. As a test you can short out between the 2 big terminal and the engine SHOULD turnover (but not start unless ignition is also on). If you can confirm the second big terminal is going live when you turn the ignition and the engine still doesn't turn over then you may have a bad earth from the engine to the chassis and back to the battery. If this is in a 90 then the connection from the battery to the chassis can get loose, give it a check. You say you have already run an extra wire from the starter to the chassis so I assume this will be good but another check wouldn't hurt. Alternatively you may have a flat battery !!!!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Badger Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 I think the hazards / indicators are not on because of me not having the switch in place... As for the starter, the engine is a 2.8 tgv, the starter is housed via it being fixed, maybe I have added the earth onto the wrong terminal however the problem was there before adding this extra cable. I can take this off and bolt it to a bolt on the engine to test again. I have not changed looms or any thing, this is the first loom I have. As for the immobiliser connections, this is where I think it is wrong, as I have not bypassed anything, just plugged it all in, there is a a random brown and black wire that has a waterproof plug, I thing this should go to the immobiliser, it has a bolt loom on it half way that I assume is another earth, so I have earth this and not done anything with the two wires , so I reckon they have to go somewhere but where I am not sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jericho Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 My advice is forget about the immobiliser issue for a moment. You need a multi meter,or at least a test lamp to find your faults. For the starter - first check that the wire from the ignition is supplying 12v then check that the solenoid is working - so the large connection from solenoid to motor goes live when ignition is turned. If the starter still does nothing,check that the starter is earthed adequately. If still nothing,the you have a defective starter - nothing to do with immobiliser. Sounds like you have solved the indicator problem. Is this a defender loom (we are in the defender section)? if so,the a diagram will tell you what your stray wires are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Sounds to me like a poor connection somewhere. My best guess is on the battery - check both are clean and tight. The immobiliser will stop it starting, but won't prohibit it turning over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 what happens when you run a +ve straight to the starter solenoid pack? duff starter if you get 12v at the pack and nothing happens, duff legs/body if it starts (best to do it with two people!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Badger Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 Ok, so we ran a seperate cable from the battery to the solonoid, it cranks it, but we get some smoke from somewhere, now we only get this when cranking, all other times it's all fine.. So, we put the multi meter on it, when cranking earth is becoming a solid 6 volts? think it's the starter motor, brand new duff starter.... find out on tuesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Ok, so we ran a seperate cable from the battery to the solonoid, it cranks it, but we get some smoke from somewhere, now we only get this when cranking, all other times it's all fine.. So, we put the multi meter on it, when cranking earth is becoming a solid 6 volts? think it's the starter motor, brand new duff starter.... find out on tuesday. Does the smoke come from under the middle seat by any chance? Are you absolutely certain that you have a high current earth wire : between battery negative and transmission case (gearbox)between chassis and gearboxbetween chassis and battery negative (for insurance) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Does the smoke come from under the middle seat by any chance? Are you absolutely certain that you have a high current earth wire : between battery negative and transmission case (gearbox)between chassis and gearboxbetween chassis and battery negative (for insurance) ? That would be my guess as well. As a quick check try connecting a jump lead from the negative of the battery to the engine. If that stops the smoke then time to check the power and earth leads again. If you can find the source of the smoke thats probable the problem. It's possible (but not that likely!) that the starter is not making a clean electrical connection to the bell housing. If possible connect the jump lead direct to the starter mounting flange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 If you can find the source of the smoke thats probable the problem. And its probably the handbrake cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Badger Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 yep, got a 360 amp line from the battery negative to the gearbox housing. The starter is being checked out tomorrow. Smoke was firstly coming from melting plastic, this plastic is part of the stainless steel fuel lines, woven in, some reason where two were touching they were getting hot and melting. Only on crank. These lines go back along the chassis so they were the closest thing to the main earth Handbrake cable is working, warning light etc, its all ok. Will wait until I get the starter result before I go looking for a bad connection as I am pretty sure that they are all where they should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Smoke was firstly coming from melting plastic, this plastic is part of the stainless steel fuel lines, woven in, some reason where two were touching they were getting hot and melting. Hell's bells! That's a new one, well done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Smoke was firstly coming from melting plastic, this plastic is part of the stainless steel fuel lines, woven in, some reason where two were touching they were getting hot and melting. Only on crank. wow - 99.999999999999999999999999% certain - you've got a bad earth there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Badger Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 ok, so then after getting the starter tested, found out that it was a copy.... Came with the engine, and was a copy of the proper one, so changed it. Got the fuel into the filter. Got the fuel out of the injection. Got the fuel out of the injectors. after much of that, it works!!! yeah!!! Last october I got the old rust bucket, stripped it, built a new one from scratch, asked lots of stupid questions, and a year later, the thing runs. Sorry but I have never done this before and it was my "first time". Surprisingly, the first thing I noticed was how quite it was in comparison to my puma 90 that is now history. Anyhow, turned it off, got it back going again after some more tries, but it does seam a little tempremental, I am hopping that it is just fuel issues as there are no leaks and the tanks are pretty big, so I am just gonna fill them up some more to help it along. Well, I will post a picture in a bit. A big thanks to all the answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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