gav- Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Help required no rpm signal I have just wired up ms1 extra to a rover v8, however using Tunerstudio I can not get a true rpm signal. I have MAT, Coolant temp and MAP pressure working ok. When I turn the ignition key, the rpm number indicates over 20000rpm! And then drops to 0 rpm where by it stays reading 0. I have used the tooth and trigger logger on the diagonistics function on TS, and it indicates no missing tooth. I have a Ford Transit trigger wheel and the VR sensor (this is mounted in an aluminium housing the actual head of the VR sensor is surrounded by aluminium) is located with the smallest gap as possible. The wires from the VR sensor are connected to the correct pins on the EDIS module. The shielded cable is connected to ground, Does this need to pin 7. The PIP wire from the ECU is connected to pin 1, there is a pair of cables within a shielded cable. The other wire of the pair is connected to pin 7 on the EDIS. The shield of the cable is connected to ground. SAW is a straight connection from ECU to EDIS module. Q’s - Is the VR sensor affected by the aluminium shroud? Does the shield from the VR sensor need to connect to pin 7 rather than ground? Is the wiring correct? Is there a way to test the VR sensor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Pin 7 of EDIS should go just to the VR cable sheild. The Sheild should be open at the sensor end (not connected) The PIP signal from pin 1 should go to MS pin 24 If you get the polarity reversed on a ford sensor, then you get no signal............ check you have the sensor polarity correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Tooth and trigger logger will not work with EDIS, they are for directly connected VR sensors. Check the VR polarity and the PIP connection as BBC suggests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 5, 2010 Author Share Posted March 5, 2010 fridge and BBC thanks for your input. I have a rpm reading now, 135rpm. However it still does not fire and removing a ignition lead and spark plug and earthing to the ending confirms that there is no spark. The ECU stops reading the PW, RPM and duty cycle after about 10secs on cranking, what causes this? I am sorry for the questions but i am going away next week and really would like it running/firing before i go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 fridge and BBC thanks for your input. I have a rpm reading now, 135rpm. However it still does not fire and removing a ignition lead and spark plug and earthing to the ending confirms that there is no spark. The ECU stops reading the PW, RPM and duty cycle after about 10secs on cranking, what causes this? Good, you are making progress...........it wouldn't be fun if it all worked first time ! I suspect the battery voltage may get too low after 10 secs of continuous crank............ However, check you have the wiring correct for the A,B,C,D coil pairs (EDIS pins 8, 9, 11, 12 with 10 to ground). ......... also check that SAW (Spark Advance Word) from the ECU is connected to pin 36 of the ECU as some older diagrams show it connected pin 30 which is the Fidle output. Also make sure you have a live (whilst cranking) going to EDIS pin 6 & ecu pin 28, and to the centre pin of each coil pack The last one I did which had this issue ....... the coil pack A,B was faulty............but that is very unusual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I would concentrate on the EDIS first, with the MS disconnected (assuming the EDIS still has power !) it should fire the ignition quite happily at 10 BTDC. If it's not doing that then you have a problem with the EDIS setup, check the VR sensor is connected the correct way around (reverse the wires and see if you get a spark). Check the power and earths, beyond that it doesn't need much else for EDIS to run the ignition. Once you have the EDIS firing you can then connect the MS and worry about the fuelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 If you have no sparks then regardless of the megasquirt unit, the EDIS unit is unhappy about something (usually VR sensor) or you've fudged the wiring. The MS is pretty much a bystander in this setup, the EDIS does the clever stuff and just waggles the PIP wire up and down to tell the MS the RPM, and the MS waggles the SAW up and down to tell the EDIS what timing to set. The initial 10 seconds of things appearing is the MS priming the fuel pump etc. at startup and then, after waiting for an RPM signal, getting nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 I have been able to continue with fault finding. I have removed the ecu loom plug and cranked the engine - exactly the same happens. I believe I have traced the issue with no spark which is actually after 5-6 secs down to the fuel pump signal from the ecu. With the ECU plug disconnected, the wire from pin 37 has battery voltage, on cranking this doesnt change so the relay isnt closed and no voltage is provided to the ignition coils. With the ECU plug connected, and ignition is on but not cranking, battery voltage is provided on the pin37 wire to the relay. Once ECU is powered up and engine cranking the voltage drops to 0, allowing the fuel pump to prime. measuring the voltage at the ignition coils this also has battery voltage. The 0v voltage on pin37 lasts for the 5-6secs. after the 5-6secs the voltage on pin37 returns to battery voltage, and opens the contacts on the relay and not providing a circuit to the coils and fuel pump. This really confuses me and doesnt seem right!! my wiring is exactly the same as hybrid as hell diagram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 This really confuses me and doesnt seem right!! my wiring is exactly the same as hybrid as hell diagram In that case it is slightly wrong …………but read on Ign on and fuel pump priming is correct perfect ………………. Turn key to crank and fuel pump should run continuously (pin 37 provides a ground for the relay.). So ……….. in the crank position the relay should (must) operate……........ A lot of folk seem to run into trouble with the cranking live…….you must have an live in the on position and that must stay live during the cranking key position ............. If it’s the diagram I am thinking then this is the correct pin out for the DB37, also on the diagram the 2 injector banks are wired 1234 & 5678 ………. Should be 1357 & 2468. The main difference is the SAW and Fidle signals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I have been able to continue with fault finding. I have removed the ecu loom plug and cranked the engine - exactly the same happens. I believe I have traced the issue with no spark which is actually after 5-6 secs down to the fuel pump signal from the ecu. With the ECU plug disconnected, the wire from pin 37 has battery voltage, on cranking this doesnt change so the relay isnt closed and no voltage is provided to the ignition coils. This shouldn't have any effect on the EDIS, it shouldn't be wired into the fuel pump relay (if it is you have a problem because the fuel pump relay won't activate until the MS gets an RPM signal and you won't get one of those until the EDIS has power !). Unplug the ECU and forget about it and it's plug until you get a spark from the EDIS. Check you have power to the EDIS unit and the coil packs and, most importantly, make sure the power stays there while you are cranking. EDIS needs 12v, earth and a VR sensor to work, the coils need 12v and a connection to EDIS, nothing more is needed to get a spark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 BBC - i have got a permanent live to pins 86 and 87 of the relay, this is a fused feed direct from the battery. I have just been outside to confirm this. The fuel pump wire pin 37 is the one which is switching. with permanent live on pins 86 and 87, pin 85 has battery voltage. When cranking pin 86 and pin 87 are still live, pin 85 drops to almost 0v, and the contacts are closed to pin 30. Which provides power to the coils and the fuel pump. After 6 secs pin 85 on the relay(pin 37) this has 12v on it and opens the contacts for pin 30. After the 6 secs, I loose a reading from the ecu, for rpm, pulse width, and BTDC. All of my earths for the ecu are attached to the block, there is 0.4v drop from the negative battery terminal and this location on the block whilst the engine is cranking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 This shouldn't have any effect on the EDIS, it shouldn't be wired into the fuel pump relay (if it is you have a problem because the fuel pump relay won't activate until the MS gets an RPM signal and you won't get one of those until the EDIS has power !). Dave, On that diagram the power to the coils is shared with the fuel pump so if he unplugs the ECU then the FP relay will not provide the the 12V to the coil packs as the FP relay coil will see no 'ground'................this was the traditional way of wiring MS. Gav ........ most of us run the 12V to the coils either from the main relay, or from a separete Ign relay (the method I prefer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 The feed to the ecu stays permanent the whole time. It does seem to be a issue with the relay control from pin37 from the ecu. Does it have anything to do with the cranking/priming pw table. Running from the Fuel pump relay are- 2xwires for the lambda heater, 2 wires to the edis coils, 1 wire to the fuel pump and 1 wire to the stepper motor. Running from the main relay are - 1 for ms ecu, 2 wires for 1357 and 2468 injectors, 1 wire for pin 6 on edis module Will will try run with the edis coil feeds from the main relay rather than the fuel pump relay. Back soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 No, from memory, the priming ,cranking setting should have no effect on the fuel pump trigger (pin 37) To prove the issue just temporary wire the coils / Edis from the main relay supply ………. Lay an old plug on the plenum and see if you have sparks when cranking........... then provide the pump with the same supply ......... and it should fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 I have just wired in the feed to the coils via the main relay, whilst this provides a constant 12v to the coil still no spark. I am wondering if there is an issue with the EDIS 8 module now. Again after 6 secs the readout of the rpm, pulsewidth duty and BTDC were lost to tunerstudio. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 If you have no sparks & it is the module faulty then I doubt whether it will issue a PIP signal. Did you try a spark from EACH coil ? Check your EDIS unit wiring again………..also disconnect the SAW input to the EDIS8 module......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 SAW input removed from EDIS and no spark from either of the coil packs. Again the Duty cycle, RPM, pulse width and BTDC readings stopped after 6 secs. I am stuck now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 If you are convinced the wiring is OK, then change the EDIS module OR the VR sensor ……. That’s all it can be…….. Ignore tuner studio and leave the ECU disconnected until you get the sparks sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 ok thanks for your help BBC, really appreciated, Think i may order another edis8 module to see if it will cure the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 You should be able to get a VR sensor tomorrow from the local scrappy ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 the bit i dont understand is why i there is a rpm reading of 135rpm for the 6 secs every time i crank. After the 6 secs it reads 0. Is the edis module working for the 6 secs and then stopping? I am certainly not getting a spark output on either of the coil packs, despite the constant 12v to the centre wire on both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Can you look with megatune to see if you get the same effect ? It is important to get the sparks going first .......... then is the time to look at megatune / tunerstudio to see about the fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gav- Posted March 13, 2010 Author Share Posted March 13, 2010 unfortunately I have not been able to get megatune to work as i believe my usb to serial converter is not compatable. tunerstudio is the only software i have got to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 The Maplin usb - rs232 is one of the few that works with most PC's & megatune ......... its a 'prolific' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 MODS: I know we should take this to PM's, but others might be interested ......... you can always delete the thread later thanks........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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