MS - Where to start???????

[jonost24]

Rightio Guys,

Got the landy in the garage (after taking the roof and rear door off), so atleast I can work in the dry

I've got a 3.5 V8 flapper from approx '87/'88 RRC. I've the EDIS8 and sensor, a couple of Ford coils with leads and about £400 saved towards my MS project.

Before I dive in and purchase my MS, I'm sure there are a number of jobs to do, without much expenditure that I can carry on with. Question is where shall I start???

I know I need to fit a trigger wheel and make a bracket for the sensor, and I need to make up a bracket to carry the 2 coils.

With it being a 3.5 flapper, I suppose I need to get a lambda boss welded into the Y-pipe. I know a wideband is prefered for more accurate setting, but quite a lot of expense for initial set up. Can I get away with a narrowband?

PWM idle valve - As you're probably aware, I don't think I have one on the back of my plenum. Is it worth fitting one, if so do I get my plenum machined to suit?

Is there any thing else I've missed?

Any guidance would be very much appreciated. I will probably go to Extraefi for MS and maybe Triggerwheels for the er... trigger wheel.

Thanks in advance,

Jon

[zim]

Trigger wheel and sensor - speak to nigel (aka hybrid from hell), he'll supply you with a wheel and little bracket for your VR sensor. for the cost it's not worth fannying about making your own etc

Lambda - again, while your buying the above bracket from nige - get him to send you a bung to weld in for your lambda sensor. Then go to partco and buy a narrowband. Check the main thread for the model number.

PWM - get a 2 wire one from a vauxhaul etc (again, model number on the main thread) it makes it easy to set idle

you'll also need an inlet air temp sensor & bung, as well as a coolant temp sensor. guess who from

hey nige - commission LOL

G

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

^^^

A Commission ?

Ok, thanks, could you build me a small extension free ?

PM me best, I have it all, apart from Beer, your gonna need plenty

Nige

[Andrew Cleland]

I just went for my first MS & EDIS drive today, so the experience is fresh in my head!

Mainly it's what the other two said! Don't bother trying to make a bracket for the VR sensor unless you really want to - one of Nige's or similar from triggerwheels.com will do fine. Likewise get a lambda boss from either Nige or ebay for not much money and weld (it's an easy weld, even I could do it) or get it welded in. Likewise the coilpack brackets - any day now Nige will have them dialled-in and for the sake of £40 odd quid you'll be saving yourself a lot of grief. Not sure about the details with the 3.5 plenum, but you have an extra air valve I think, you can use the plumbing for this for the idle valve (Bosch, ebay) - you shouldn't need to have any machining done.

One thing to think about quite early on is all the wiring involved. This is a lot easier to do when the top of the engine is apart, so you can get into the injectors easily. If you plan to build the loom from scratch (which I think is worth doing - a flapper age loom is going to be pretty hard by now), you'll need about 12 2-pin Junior Power Timer connectors, lots of heat shrink sleeving, lots of loom tape or sleeving and plenty of zip ties or insulating tape. Polevolt (www.polevolt.co.uk) and VWP (wwww.vehicle-wiring-products.eu) are good for connectors and cable respectively. Take lots of notes when you make-up the looms!

If you've done *any* electronics in the past you can also build your own MS from kit. The instructions on the web are very detailed and take you through step-by-step. I was wary as I've never built anything with a microprocessor, only amplifiers and the likes when I was younger, but it's not tricky, doesn't take too long (less than a day) and really helps you understand how the MS works. The kit from Nige has everything you need, all nicely bagged and labelled. The only thing I added were sockets for the other 'chips' - serial driver, optoisolator, op-amp and MOSFET driver - pennies from Maplin or RS.

Overall my experience of Megasquirting and EDISing the 110, a 3.9 hotwire V8, is that whilst none of it's particularly tricky, there is so much going on and so many little things to think about that, unless you have *a lot* of spare time, getting things like brackets ready-made is worth doing. With £400 in the pot and most of the EDIS kit already you've got easily enough for all the MS gubbins.

Have fun - it's a great feeling when it all fires-up!

AndyC.

[FridgeFreezer]

First off - just buy all the bits you can from Nige, god knows he's spent enough time working it all out so it all fits perfectly and for the money it's really not worth the faffing.

Wideband sensor is really not needed unless you're being perfectionist with the tuning, NB will get you ~95% there, and it's difficult to notice the last 5% when you're driving a tractor. PWM idle valve is nice but not essential, you can leave the flapper bimetal valve in place, it just needs 12v ignition switched live and it does its thing as the engine warms up. Doesn't give you nice closed-loop idle control though. I have no idle valve at all, and ran the RR for ages without one either. Slightly lumpy starting aside it's not a big issue.

Flapper loom gives you the basics in a relatively simple loom - injectors, coolant sensor, pinch the 9th injector wire for air temp sensor, tach signal, then you just need to add the EDIS over the top. If it's in good nick then you may as well run with it, if it's crusty then you might want to re-do it as suggested. I have a couple of ~12 foot megasquirt wiring harnesses which are easily made into full looms with the addition of connectors & relays, I'm sure I could throw one at Nige when I next see him.

Points of note:

- Flapper has low-impedance injectors and a resistor pack by the AFM which drops the current, if you were to rewire you probably wouldn't find a new connector or pins for the resistor pack, which leaves three options: re-use the old one, replace the resistor pack with 8x ~5.6 Ohm power resistors, or ditch the lot and fit a 3.9 fuel rail & injectors which are high impedance and clamp-down type.

- VWP's junior power timer connectors are not sealed, the durite/AMP/Tyco ones are but are a right fiddle to assemble with the little push-in seals.

- Whatever you do, buy a tub of vaseline and pack every connector before connecting it.

- Everything you could possibly need to know is in the big thread of Nige's install, if you're still unsure after reading it then come back and ask.

[jonost24]

Thanks for the really useful info. I've pm'd Nige and calling him later.

FF - thanks for that info. I've read about the 3.9 injectors, popped on eblag and

they're quite expensive, but prbably the way to go. While I'm at it you're suggestion

of making up a new loom could be the answer.

I've just got to phone Nige and discuss some options.

Cheers guys,

Jon

[FridgeFreezer]

3.9 injectors are only expensive when people think they're worth something, last I bought I paid £10 for a plenum, manifold, fuel rail & inejctors at Billing, and that's usually what I pay at Sodbury etc.

[jonost24]

3.9 injectors are only expensive when people think they're worth something, last I bought I paid £10 for a plenum, manifold, fuel rail & inejctors at Billing, and that's usually what I pay at Sodbury etc.

NICE

[jonost24]

Righteo, here I go . I picked up my 3.9 top end - £8.50 off ebay, but a 300 mile round trip to W.Yorkshire .

Even so all in about £40. Another little look on ebay and individually the parts would have been about £150 not including the loom-which I got as well. Brand new parts at one plce £500 , and no loom.

Is it worth me perservering with the 3.9 loom or just plug in the 3.5 already on there?

I've ordered all my bits off Nige (thanks Nige for your advice).

Just trying to remove the Y-pipe off the exhaust system to get the bung welded in It's not off yet, but I'm getting there .

I think my next bit is to find tdc on No1 cylinder and fit the trigger wheel. I reckon I'll have to remove the rad to give me space to remove the pulley. Not a bad thing as it will give me a chance to flush the rad.

And then I suppose fit the coil bracket, fit the top end and then look at the wiring side???

Any one got any other suggestions on procedure at all??

Cheers,

Jon

[FridgeFreezer]

3.9 looms are a bit busy but can be converted, you can re-use a lot of the excess wires for the coil packs and whatnot, just beware some colours of wire occur more than once in the loom for different jobs.

The 3.5 loom is a lot simpler, but you have to add the wires you need for coils. You can steal the airflow meter wires for the lambda sensor and IAT but that's about it. You can bridge the PR1 resistor pack wires out and use the 3.9 injectors instead.

[jonost24]

Slow but steady. trying to balance work, life & MS

Got the exhaust off, bung welded in by a local bloke for a tenner.

Tonight stripped the 3.9 plenum and removed fuel rail & injectors

Is it worth replacing the rubber seals on the injectors? They don't look

too bad - non are perished.

Also we have an ultrasonic cleaner at work - Is it worth suspending them

to clean the ends? or not?

Just trying to take it step by step at the mo, but still happy

[FridgeFreezer]

Rubber seals - meh, if they're OK then leave them.

Cleaning depends what's in your cleaner and what it's used for, it might work brilliantly or it might b*gg*r the injectors up and get you told off for ruining the contents of the cleaning tank.

[jonost24]

The cleaner isn't used anymore, and was used very little to start with. It was originally purchased to clean some parts after flat lapping, so there could be some light residue of lapping compound in the tank, but could be cleaned out. It's a heated type with a timer, and some type of detergent to mix with de-ionised water. Would it be worth just cleaning the injectors with brake cleaner or something? and would I spray with WD40 to keep any rust at bay? Or just leave them and see how they perform?

[FridgeFreezer]

If you store them, I'd advise sticking something like WD40 on/in them to stop them seizing closed.

[jonost24]

Cheers Fridge, hopefully my MS install wont take that long, but a light coat of WD might be worth it.

Cheers, Jon

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Once running better bet is with just a little petrol in the tank add a can of forte injector cleaner, its superb

stuff, and can save you a fortune by getting spray patterns back where they have started to squirt due to build ups

Nige

[jonost24]

Thanks Nige,

would that be on first start-up after fitting MS?

Cheers,

Jon

[jonost24]

I've stripped the old top end down. Are the 3.9 injectors a straight fit into the 3.5 manifold?

Is it best to coat the injector seals with anything to help fit them? Would WD40 affect the seals?

Making slow but steady progress

To find TDC, if I put a DTI onto the top of No1 piston rotate the engine to line up the timing marks

to show TDC, and have the rotor arm pointing at No1 plug lead position, that'll be right, won't it?

Stupid question, but is there any dwell as the piston moves across TDC?

Once at TDC, whats the best way to lock it up to remove the pulley (ZF 4 sp auto)?

I know the questions sound a bit novice, but just making sure really

Cheers, Jon

[FridgeFreezer]

Are the 3.9 injectors a straight fit into the 3.5 manifold?

yes, you need the 3.9 fuel rail too but that bolts straight on.

Is it best to coat the injector seals with anything to help fit them? Would WD40 affect the seals?

Not necessary, WD40 shouldn't hurt them though.

Finding TDC is a bit of a game, as the closer to TDC you get the less the piston is moving so there is no clear "edge" to tell you where it is, one method is to mark on the pulley where the piston is a certain amount away from TDC on the DTI, then rotate it until it's the same amount the other side of TDC, then split the difference. You can repeat this for smaller measurements to get pretty accurate. The rotor arm has quite a big tolerance so is not really to be relied upon, as long as it points at roughly the right nub of the dizzy cap the spark will jump to the right place.

That said I just went off the timing marks on my pulley and haven't had a problem, it's close enough for government work as they say

[jonost24]

Cheers Fridge, Yes I've got the fuel rail as well, so not a problem.

Yes I thought about marking the pulley as you say. The way I see it

there must must be some sort of "dwell" around TDC. I'll give it a whizz

Cheers,

Jon

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

<puts hand up>

I fink I may disagree here

The 3.5 flapper inlet is different in how the injectors fit than a hotwire one.

On the flapper the 2 x banks of injectors are bolted in place with a sort of figure of 8 plate, whereas

the hotwires are held in all 8 at a time via the fuel rail, but then the fuel rail is bolted to the inlet

manifold holding the injectors all in place. I THINK when I looked at the there were not the holes drlled n

taped for a hotwire rail to fit to a flapper inlet manifold.

There again just to balance the above I 'aint 100% sure

Hope this helps

Nige

PS Let us know either way please ?

[FridgeFreezer]

Mine is a 3.5 top end with 3.9 inejctors & fuel rail and the fuel rail re-uses the drilled & tapped holes that the figure-8 clamps use.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

^^^

See I said ignore me

Nige

[jonost24]

Yes, Fridge is right. I trial fitted the fuel rail and the "tabs" on the rail appeared to line up with the tapped holes on the manifold.

If that's the case, hopefully the fuel rail, when clamped, will hold the injectors tight in there positions.

[jonost24]

Fitted the fuel rail and injectors to the 3.5 manifold tonight. The injectors don't seem to seat too positively in the manifold.

The 3.9 manifold injector holes appear to be deeper and the injectors seem to seta further in.

The injectors are in the holes but not as much. Should I put the 3.9 manifold on or try it a sit stands?

By the way, the 3.9 manifold has a couple of broken screws where the trumpet base fitted (broken by previous owner)