ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 (edited) Well. This is getting silly, but I suppose the timing could have been a lot worse. I've just got back from a 2000 mile jaunt around ireland in the disco, and then 2 120 mile round trips collecting and towing back my caravan and horse trailer full of junk to their new home for a few months. Happy days, trouble free motoring. Yesterday on the way back from the shop a funny thing happened...... .....approaching a crossroads on a slight incline in second gear, ther was a fairly innocent sounding clunk, i assumed the transfer box had slipped into neutral. It occasionally does this if I don't ensure high box is properly engaged after using low box (i'd beed in low yesterday reversing and parking up the trailers).... ....but no. Still engaged. Now, i've got no drive, just a grindy sort of noise when any gear is engaged. 1st is quiet, 2nd is louder,3rd sounds bad, 4th makes me cringe a bit, and I'm really not very imperssed with the noise 5th makes at all. The front prop will turn all the way round by hand until it sort of jams on somthing (in the g/box or t/box?) but you can basically twist it both ways with no resistance. Has the t/box or g/box failed on me? I havn't been able to engage diff lock since i've had the truck as it's sticky from probably never having been used. Relevance? Dunno, thought i'd mention it. Also all the nasty noises stop when the T/box is in neutral, but then i suppose you'd expect that to be the case? Somebody.........pleeeeease.....help....i..can't...take.....much........more.....of this 8888. edit: 300tdi disco, r380 g/box Edited March 19, 2011 by BogMonster Removal of unnecessary title and obvious attempt to get around the swear filter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Have you jacked a front wheel up off the ground to be able to turn the prop? if not then it sounds like you've broken a front shaft/cv or the diff! is the noise coming from the gearbox or axle? The fact the noise gets worse as you go up through the gears also suggests its something other than g/box. Does it still make the noises if you take the prop off? The transfer lever is easy to fix, take out the console surrounding the gearsticks and take off the top housing of the t/box and simply clean with plenty of freeing agent (wd) and give it plenty of grease. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Somebody.........pleeeeease.....help....i..can't...take.....much........more.....of this sh!t. I've been here recently and that can of petrol and the box of matches is lookin oh so tempting Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fozsug Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Sounds like a shaft to me too. You say you have no drive, so find a level bit of ground chock the wheels, hand brake off, put it into first get out and have a look under and see which propshaft is spinning, if its the front the as steve said shaft ,cv or diff in front axle, if its the rear then shaft or diff in the rear axle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 I've been here recently and that can of petrol and the box of matches is lookin oh so tempting Steve Hey, i've got petrol! And matches! Oh so tempting...... I havn't jacked a wheel up as the prop seemed quite happy to spin with it on the ground! The noise seems to be coming from the g/box. I put it into gear and hopped out to have a listen, i figured if it's already knackered it couldn't do mush harm. Or not.... Just took the rubber cap of the shaft end. Didn't look good. Bone dry, and the circlip was indistinguishable from the shaft due to rust. Took the drive member off for a gander. Didn't look good. The splines have evolved into a new kind of 'rust on rust' mesh setup. Sadly i've now buggered this revolutionairy new system and i'm left with a splineless shaft and member (easy tiger). I'm ashamed to say i don t recon theres a lot of oil in that axle, or has been for a while...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 ok, it's front prop spinning, and of course the newly exposed spineless shaft end. That spoils the test a bit doesn't it? Why all the noise from the gearbox though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 put it in diff lock, does it drive? if so then it's either a drive member, as you've already found, or it's a cv or half shaft. worse case it's the output shaft into the transfer box - but as the prop is spinning, that is ruled out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 right. No diff lock, cos of the sticky lever so i guess first job is to sort that, then strip the front axle and find what's gone pop. I'm thinking from what every one says and the suspicious dryness of the shaft end that it's in the axle, due to poor maintenance on my part. Oops. Still don't get why the noise seems to be coming fro the gearbox?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 any oil in the gearbox? lol it's probably just the gears turning, and as there is no load on them they are running noisy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The transfer box centre diff isn't really designed to split the power front to rear with any major difference in speed for very long. Running all the power to one axle with the centre diff open/unlocked has the potential to destroy the centre diff. Obviously you need to sort the axle out anyway but the noise you were hearing might indicate you've also damaged the centre diff by running it without the difflock in. At high load/speeds with all the power going to one axle you can destroy the centre diff VERY quickly. If you're lucky the noise you heard will be the centre diff "complaining" rather than destroying itself. It's really not a good idea to "test it" in that manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 oh. Bugger. Well, can't take it back now. I guess i'll strip the axle and try and get some second hand parts to rebuild so i can see what else i've damaged. If i get difflock engaged first, and then try and move the truck will that tell me if the centre's ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 If you sort the sticky lever out (easy) and put it in difflock you should be able to drive along again - this tell's you your g/box's are probably fine and your problem lies inside your from axle, If you don't get drive with center difflock engaged then you most likely have a gearbox issue. Don't be tempted to drive around with it like this though or you may cause further damage. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 i'm in there right now trying to free up the lever. It's bloody sticky. Do i just keep firing wd onto the switch on top of the t box and all the other linkage? I don't wanna get too heavy handed and snap things.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 No, you need to take the top housing off, from memory there are six or so bolts that hold it on, think they're 8 or 10mm pop this off as it's inside there that siezes up. You will need to take out the center console (about six screws) and remove the rubber diaphram on the gearbox tunnel - this gives very good access to it. Basically take this housing off and work the mechanism with a smaller soft hammer and WD. There might be something in the tech archive, it sounds a worse job than it actually is! took me about 45 mins start to finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 ok, i was halfway there already, so now i recon i've got it freed up. With difflock in the prop turns, but i can stop it turning by grabbing hold of it. That's not good is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Is the difflock light coming on on the dash ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 no light, but i've never had a landy that it worked on! Maybe it hasn't quite engaged yet. I'd better keep wiggling it in there! If the light doesn't work, how will i know when it's in?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 When you can't stop the propshaft ? Unfortunately that's about it really. You can test the light itself by shorting the connector out at the switch (top of the transfer box front output section). It is still possible that the difflock hasn't activated as they don't always go in (or out) immediately as it relies on spring pressure. Try rolling the motor forward or backward a few feet with the lever in the locked position, that may let it pop in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 right. I've got the lock in, the light doesn't work (bulbs ok, must be the switch) but after hammering the drive member back onto the shaft and putting a couple of bolts in......i got drive! Wooohooo! There's oil in the axle, looks a bit thin, but it's there. So tomorrow its shafts out and see what's what i guess. Place your bets, gentlemen. Long shaft, short shaft, cv or diff? Would the fact that i had to reattach the passenger side drive member to get drive give any clues? I gotta say, i've had a headache building all day and it's just landed hard! I can't think straight. I need a drink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I think the fact you had to attach the passenger side is a bit odd, I assume its still in center difflock? if so you would still have drive to the rear axle even with no front prop on. unless of course you've broken something at the back aswell Looking forward to the answer on this! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 I think the fact you had to attach the passenger side is a bit odd, I assume its still in center difflock? if so you would still have drive to the rear axle even with no front prop on. unless of course you've broken something at the back aswell Looking forward to the answer on this! Steve Ah ha! My thoughts exactly as i sit here in a field surrounded by the contents of my front axle. And so, to the rear of the vehicle where i romove 2 perfectly servicable propshafts. Poo. I was kinda hoping that would be the end of it. Only the rear diff left to check....but that seems like wishful thinking..... Now, for the purposes of clarity and to help with diagnosish, i'm gonna start over with the sequence of events, and hopefully somthing will click for somone, and they can tell me it's all gonna be ok....! 1. Sudden, silent loss of drive at low speed on slight incline on tarmac. 2. Discovery of totally knackered drive member and halfshaft splines (nearside) 3. Tow home 4. Linkage to centre difflock freed up, lock engaged, resulting in no drive. 5. Knackered drive member attached to knackered half shaft using land rover special tool number 2 (lump hammer) and bolted back to stub axle, resulting in drive. 6. After brief period of elation, nearside stub axle stripped, inspected and considered to be in reasonable condition. (bar knackered splines) need to replace cv joint and drive member noted. 7. off side stub axle removed complete, as i was expecting to see a busted half shaft. Dissapointment. 8. removal of diff, requiring me to drop the steering bar, steering damper, donut thing and anti roll bar. Hmmm, much easier on a defender. 9. Nowt wrong with the diff. Period of head scratching. 10. Removal of both rear half shafts revealing nothing untoward. 11. Avoid removing rear diff, cos i really don't fancy it right now. Post on forum, hoping for deliverance. 12. Whilst posting, wonder if the offside cv could be the problem, as it's about the only bit i havn't visually checked. Though thinking probably not... So. There we are. If it's not the rear diff, can anything happen to the transfer box that would fit with this situation? Can it break in a way that it will only have drive when in diff lock, mimicking the effect of a broken shaft, cv or diff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 well. Now i'm confused. I've had the rear shafts out and they're fine. I'm pretty sure if the diff had blown i'd have heard more noise at the time and at least a grumbling when towing it back. I took the front offside stub axle off as a whole unit to save time and unless the cv's gone in there i'm stumped cos the diff's fine. Piles of axle bits and no answer. Can the transfer box fail in a way that only sends drive to one axle (in this case front) that would need centre diff engaged to get the vehicle to move? That would make it look like a shaft had snapped when actually the box was at fault? I'm gonna have to just put everything back together again and start diagnosis from scratch soon cos i'm just getting nowhere at the moment. With the motor in pieces i can't even tell if i've re-engaged something in the transfer box that may have slipped out?!? I'm just grasping at straws now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam300Tdi90 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 This is due to the CV joint splines and the drive member. I had exactly the same problem once. If you replace the CV where the splines have been worn away and the drive member, the problem will be sorted. Although having said all that, your point '6' doesn't makes sense to me really. How come, when you fixed (bodged ) it in 'point 5', you then stripped the other side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnie_rotten Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 This is due to the CV joint splines and the drive member. I had exactly the same problem once. If you replace the CV where the splines have been worn away and the drive member, the problem will be sorted. Although having said all that, your point '6' doesn't makes sense to me really. How come, when you fixed (bodged ) it in 'point 5', you then stripped the other side? when i lost drive at the roadside, one of my first thoughts was to have the shafts out and see what was what. When i took the rubber cap off i couldn't even see the circlip for rust. I chipped off what used to be the clip and then tried to get the drive member off. It was totally welded to the shaft. Even with a wd, a hammer, more wd i couldn't budge it. Eventually, i put the bolts back in and while the missus lifted the clutch i carried on until it eventually sheared an spun inside the flange. You wouldn't believe the state of the shaft. Literally 4mm narrower where it had rusted out. I figured the rust was doing the job of the splines and therefore that problem was secondary to the actual truck stopper. Which i figured was cv or break in the shaft, or on the other side. Hence the stripdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam300Tdi90 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 So do you still think there's another problem? I would say that even though you struggled to get the rusted drive member off, you would be lucky to get drive back on that wheel. So when you hammered the drive member back on and got drive, you 'fixed it'. Now all you need to do is put it back together with a new CV joint and drive member. Where are you in the world Mr Rotten? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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