Blown Front Dif...Should I Upgrade

[rsclark777]

Okay, so I am new to this forum but have read a number of discussions and am hopeful I can get some good advice here. While overlanding in Colorado I blew out the front dif of my 2009 Puma 110 (yes, it is legal). I did so while pulling my offroad trailer (see pic attached) on a pretty steep and technical trail (for me, meant to read "user error" likely).

So, here is the question: Should I just simply replace it with a LR factory replacement or should I upgrade? If I upgrade, what brand do you suggest. I have heard a lot of good things about Ashcroft and ARB, most seem to chose Ashcroft? And does the dif you suggest encourage or require other upgrades (CV, Axle, Rear dif as well, etc.) to make sure that the dif doesn't create another issue.

Lastly, this is probably a stupid question, if I upgrade to Ashcroft or ARB will the Hi/Lo gear shift allow these to go into lock mode (by moving it to the left, like done for the factory dif)? Advantages of what/why you recommend is appreciated.

Thanks everyone, in advance for helping me out. My mechanic would like to get the 110 off his lot soon.

[Team Idris]

2009 is hardly worn out, so I suggest you had too much torque on it, which is fair given the task

So 4 pin diff time I think and a stronger carrier to stop the crown wheel flexing. (I assume it did one or the other).

Ashcroft is a 'dog' locker with a better dog set up than the ARB, so it has been popular. I'd like to suggest a KAM with the locker/limited slip, both in the same package, which is nice, but not an easy fit with welding and cutting. So Ashcroft is favourite for me, and does the 'easy to live with' open diff, with the locker if you need it. You could argue you get the stronger diff with the locker thrown in for free for this application of pulling a trailer?

You could wire the 4x4 light to a relay to trip the front locker, but a separate switch is fine/better. Because; I think the CV's will be fine with a locker, but this is a guess. I'm not so sure the shafts will be impressed? So for this reason I would keep the locker on a separate switch to use when you really need it. Then the front shafts don't have to suffer 'wind up' between each other on hard ground.

If you think the shafts are weak I'd change them for Ashcroft at the same time. It is expensive, but when you need the locker you need to be confident that the drive shafts aren't going to disintegrate. Now I can do stuff I wouldn't have dreamed of trying with the standard parts on my 1972 RRC

(not that 110 isn't already twice as good as 10 spline historic stuff)

[landybehr]

In my eyes that sounds like a case for an Ashcroft - ATB "locker". Fit it and forget it.

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=259

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic13545.html

I have the comparable "TrueTrac" ATBs in my RRC and am very fond of them.

But in the end it depends on what you want to do with the vehicle etc.

And while sending an order to Ashcroft, you could add the H/D halfshafts and CV-joints from them to the basket.

Possibly with the H/D drive flanges.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

OK

My 2p worth, hoping I don't get flamed for spamming

1st some useful info

Your 110 has 2 very different differentials fitted...................

In the rear is a short nose 4 pin 3.54 24 spline and its a very strong unit, it replaced the salisbury and is a lovely unit

however the front is the same as all other Land Rovers with long Nose 3.54 24 spline diffs, - a 2 pin unit, which is weak ....

you also have weak 32/ 24 halfshafts, so bear in mind these are also weak, .........

There is nothing you can do to strengthen a 2 pin, end of - You have a number of options :

The front and rear diffs are completely different, .........you cannot fit what you have in the back in the front ......

So, options are :

Fit another 2 pin,

buy something seconhand and decent and fit it,

but,

if you have a heavy "expedition" LR this diff may also not like the extra weight

and use its put to......... and break,.............. but its a cheap option .....

Some sort of locker ........ ashlocker,...... ATF .....LSD or KAM or ARB etc .....

Big mistake,

for all sorts of reasons,

I would ALWAYS recommend you fit locker . lsd etc to the rear axle 1st, and then,

and only if you really need it to the front. NEVER fit to the front and leave an open diff in the rear all wrong for so many reasons, ....

..your spending loads of m oney on the wrong end 1st !...and you'll need to upgrade half shaft as well, which on a 110 is tricky as you have the weak 32 / 23 shafts, a locker

or LSD (ie non open duiff) means more stress and forces on the shafts, so these will blow out, the options to sort out a HD front axle as you have will be as much again.

An open diff has less strain on the shafts as the diff will not be locked etc .........

Now, as you have open diffs at both ends at the moment,

so, if you forget the exotic ashlocker ARB locker etc then you still have options.

1. Find a 4 pin 3.54 V8 90 diff unit. this will fit straight in and be a hell of a load stronger than any 2 pin, ..........there are rare but they are out there going rate around £200-£300

or

<spam mode on>

consider what I do : http://www.megasquirt-v8.co.uk/4_pin_diffs.php same as your rear diff but modified heavily so ends up fitting the front axle casing as a complete unit

Fitting either another 2 pin means shafts are as now, fitting a 4 pin of whatever flavour means the diff is no longer the weakest link, I would say the shafts are weaker than

the diff, but you'll not break them unless you start being daft, fit a true trac, detroit, ashlocker arb kam and the shafts will break so quickly you';ll be amazed, but the locker

will also be less use than if it was in the rear ......

</spam mode off>

Hope this is of some use above

Nige

[dailysleaze]

Lastly, this is probably a stupid question, if I upgrade to Ashcroft or ARB will the Hi/Lo gear shift allow these to go into lock mode (by moving it to the left, like done for the factory dif)? Advantages of what/why you recommend is appreciated.

The hi/lo stick changes the ratio of the gears in the transfer box (second gearbox). The diff lock acts on the central diff, also in the transfer box. So changing an axle diff does not affect the factory operation of these functions.

If you mean you want to set the axle diff lock to engage when the central diff is engaged then you may be able to mock something up, but it sounds like a lot of work for something which gives you less control over the diff locks.

[m0bcg]

i have a 90" defender and the front diff fell apart on me some years ago , and this was on road driving , although i guess that is the most stressfull of driving for landrover transmissions due to the lack of "give" on tarmac versus dirt or mud roads ..

it was the sun gears that shattered and wrecked the diff .

the original standard landrover diffs are not very tough to be honest and arent really capable of handling the stress that can be applied to them , plus they are an old design which was used in other models of rover cars , albeit with different side bearings later on .

what i did was to put a detroit trutrac diff in both the front and rear axles .

when you put a truetrac diff side by side with a landrover diff you will immediately note the detroit diff being far superior and stronger in every way .

i know that now there are ashcroft "copies" available of the truetracs and so you have more choice in what you can buy these days , but when i bought mine there were only the detroit truetracs available in the helical type of LSD diffs .

the detroit diffs have a big reputation , and after all they have produced diffs for all kinds of performance cars for many years , so the track record is a proven one , especially with the drag racing scene .

ashcroft transmissions have a big reputation in the uk and wider and they know what a landrover is likely to need or be put through in its paces , so i guess you can say that whichever diff you pick you wont go wrong , ie detroit or ashcroft .

you can of course go for other diffs , ie KAM QUAIFE ARB etc , but it all depends on what kind of setup you want and are prepared to put up with .

with the truetrac/ATB it is mostly a fit and use it setup with no more operator input required other than regular oil checks etc , but with the ARB types you will need to make sure you switch them off when going back on hard surfaces .

the truetrac type of diff works ok on the front steering of my landrover , with no real noticeable downsides .

it is slightly different to an open diff at times when you are under power and have to turn quickly but it is one of those things you get used to and dont notice after a while .

the preload on the front truetrac is less than a rear one, so basically the rear one will have more lock on both wheels but the front diff will act more like an open diff .

you must buy separate front or rear truetrac diffs , ie a front or a rear model .

i put a front diff in first in mine but that was because i needed to replace a blown diff in the front and wanted to fit a stronger diff other than a landrover one , hence i bought a truetrac lsd .

then not much later i put the rear diff in .

they are easy to setup in the diff carrier and adjust the side bearings , but i would recommend a decent quality set of new side bearings and make yourself some rings up for pressing the bearings onto the diffs , because you do not want to touch the roller bearing cages and knock them off and end up with rollers all over the floor .

if you are doing a lot of mud driving then maybe fully locking diffs are what you want to look into , because even though a rear truetrac/atb will rotate both rear wheels to some degree equally and without much load on them , the front truetrac/atb will be somewhat "looser" on preload and act more as an open diff will , ie if you were bogged down to the chassis [ as i was last year] and had all wheels floating in mud and it was going nowhere but it was in gear and engine running at idle , what you will see is both rear wheels going round and only one front wheel .

get back in and apply the brakes a little and then the front diff will take up drive to both wheels , because it has resistance on both wheels , thus the helicals wound up to the face of the clutch inside .

i like the fit and forget part , hence i drive everyday , on or off road , and no more action needed to think about it .

i would like an ARB diff lock in the front but to be honest if i get stuck as i did previously , there is no way out under my own power and it means a snatch recovery the same as i had to do .

i drive across fields in the wet and my truetracs have served me well up to a point , but now i have upgraded to larger tyres with bigger tread + more ground clearance under axles .

i think at the end of the day its an ongoing "hobby" when we start messing with landrovers and drivetrains , so be expecting to want to do something else and then something else as you go on in time with your landrover .

truetrac or ATB you wont go wrong with either .

whichever way you go i wouldnt fit an open diff in when you have already got the axle apart , fit something that will give you extra traction ability and strength .

on another note , if you pull the front axle apart , you can fit the earlier parts that allow adjustment of wheelbearings , as opposed to the later shim system , but i dont know if your landrover is late enough to have that shim system fitted [ which many people hate and swap over to the earlier setup again ] .

good luck with whatever you do .

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Can you get a True Track / Detroit on a 4 pin Short Nose ?

Curoyus to know

You can get an ARB for sure ashlocker I don;t think so but I may be wrong

IMHO ashlockers are far more robust and trouble free than ARBs

Lastly Detroit has prob the worst after sales service for spare parts for any company I have dealt with - truly appalling !!!!!!!

Nige