automatic into 90 200 tdi

[orange rover]

how difficult is replacing the lt 77 with a zf? will it bolt straight in or do i need to change the mounts? do i need one with a special bell housing?

regards

orange

[Paul Humphreys]

I will let someone else go in to depth, but the hardest part is getting all the right parts. An auto to fit a 200tdi is very hard to find. I have a 200tdi in a 110 with a 3 speed auto it uses an adaptor plate between the box and engine.

Paul

[GBMUD]

The auto from a 200 or 300Tdi will fit but only the 200Tdi auto comes with the correct adapter plate to mate the two. Without it you cannot fit it. 200Tdi auto Discos were rare beasts, only coming in, IIRC, L-reg - they are however all reaching the end of their lives bodywork-wise.

Chris

[Steve 90]

Not ever done the conversion but thought about it. Would the bell housing be longer on the auto? Same length as disco/range rover! Which would mean either moving engine forward or gear box back? I may be way off the mark here tho.

[will_warne]

OK orange, this is not an impossible job but its not a simple bolt in job. As others have mentioned, Tdi autoboxes (these have identifation numbers ending in 744 or 747 IIRC) are pretty rare; to get a core unit at a good price (£300) it took me several months of proactive searching. Now, most parts in the conversion are interchangable between the 200 and 300 tdi except for the engine backplate. On the 200 Tdi the rear main oil seal is integral into the backplate, on the 300 its a separate housing that mounts into the block. These 200tdi auto backplates are hugely rare; you have to be exceptionally lucky to ever find one. I do know of someone who moddified a 300Tdi backplate to make it work with a 20o Tdi but it was a lot of work and I think he'd agree it wasn't the most elegant solution! My advice would be to find a 300tdi and auto complete and swap the lot. That way you'll have most of the things you need for the conversion.

However, say you do find a backplate and want to do the conversion on a 200 Tdi vehicle. First job will be to move the engine forward a few inches; the zf is a longer box than the LT77. In fact its pretty much the same as a Tdi R380 from bellhousing to tailshaft. Most people who do the conversion will put the engine into the 300tdi location as it means a lot of parts will fit off the shelf. However, you can move it a little less and still use 200Tdi propshafts. This has an advantge if its in an off road vehicle as the weight distribution isn't so far forward and it allows a little more space to push a front winch further back. The rest of the conversion is fairly straight forward if a little time consuming; there's lots of little jobs that take forever. Realistically, you'll struggle to do a job like this in less than 45 - 50 man hours. Mine took about double that but there were a few headaches and it wasn't exactly standard..... If you want any info on parts or more details about the job, let me know.

[will_warne]

Not ever done the conversion but thought about it. Would the bell housing be longer on the auto? Same length as disco/range rover! Which would mean either moving engine forward or gear box back? I may be way off the mark here tho.

Steve, leaving the engine where it is will give you a VERY short rear prop.

[orange rover]

thanks to all for your answers.

sounds complicated.... i thought it wouldn't since a manual v8 rangie also has a lt77 and LT230 + can be changed to automatic quite easily.

things seem to be different with dieasels

[Steve 90]

The problem is not really the diesel, although the back plate is difficult to find, if you could find one it still wouldn't be straight forward. The problem is the fact that the lt77 in a landrover has a shorter bell housing than a Range rover or disco. It would be a much more straight forward swap to go manual to auto in a diesel discovery or r380 equiped 90/110 coz the box's are the same length.

[Steve 90]

As said above, 300TDi disco's are getting into the scrap yards now. Maybe thats the way to go. Drop the lot in. There was a write off for sale on the paddock spares web site not long ago.

[SOA 93]

thanks to all for your answers.

sounds complicated.... i thought it wouldn't since a manual v8 rangie also has a lt77 and LT230 + can be changed to automatic quite easily.

things seem to be different with dieasels

I believe there is another way.

You can buy adaptors to mount a 200TDI to RRV8 auto, This way you could source a more readily available 300 TDI ZF or even a V8 ZF although I think you would need to get someone like Ashcrofts to change the valving in the V8 box. According to Ashcrofts website there are three different sizes of torque convertor, smallest is the TDI and 3.5V8(?), then the 3.9V8 and finally the 4.6V8 being the largest. Again from the Ashcrofts site, there opinion is that the TDI T/C is not really upto the torque of the TDI engine and would be better with the 3.9V8 mid sized T/C.

Sooooo.....you could go for say a 3.9 box with the bigger T/C that way you be better prepared for any future tuning tweaks or 2.8TGV transplants. Obviously the people who sell these conversion kits would be the ones to talk to regarding suitability of the V8 box mounted to a diesel.

I have a Disco 200TDI Auto, they are rare but are available, there no more expensive than a manual so you could buy one, remove the auto, fit a manual and sell on and be assured that you have all the parts neccessary for the conversion.

£3500 is a figure that is banded about for an off the shelf auto conversion, Ok that's for everything including a NAS centre console, but I think its a bit OTT or for those with very deep pockets only.

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/part_18.html#pa1

http://www.engineconversions.co.uk/rangerover.html

Hope that helps.

[orange rover]

SOA 93 thanks - taking the larger TC seems like a good idea. in order to compensate for the longer autobox is it enought to move the engine forward (200 tdi seems quite a bit in the back) or do i also need to move the transfer box further back?

regards

orange

[SOA 93]

SOA 93 thanks - taking the larger TC seems like a good idea. in order to compensate for the longer autobox is it enought to move the engine forward (200 tdi seems quite a bit in the back) or do i also need to move the transfer box further back?

regards

orange

I'll measure the disco later and I've an LT77 out of a 110 I'll measure aswell, I have no experience with this conversion, but if I wanted to Auto a 200TDI in the future this is the way I'd do it.

Its rarely as simple as it looks

[will_warne]

SOA 93 thanks - taking the larger TC seems like a good idea. in order to compensate for the longer autobox is it enought to move the engine forward (200 tdi seems quite a bit in the back) or do i also need to move the transfer box further back?

regards

orange

Orange, the choice is up to you. Basically, put it where you want - to keep the t.box where it is now you need the engine back 3" from the 300 tdi position. IIRC this is how Simon Buck's 300tdi auto 90 was setup.

Price wise, the conversion costs as much as you want it to. By all means find an old disco to bastardise but a lot of the parts don't suit going into a 90 and do you really want to use a gearbox that's an unknown quantity? One of the few people I know who've done this ended up with a very dead gearbox. If you're going to use the gearbox in a challenge machine with anything more interesting than a tweeked Tdi (ie a tweeked TD5 or 2.8) you're wasting your time with an HP22 spec box so you can add £1350 odd for an HP24 spec build up. Add the core charge (£300 for me), add the backplate (£100 as I found a second hand one), add an M&D HD flexplate (£100 IIRC) and you're already at nearly £1900! Add a £100 for random brakets and conversion parts, £150 for aero spec hoses for an oil cooler, add £300 for a Laminova cooler (IMHO the best setup for a 90 as there are very few sensible places to mount an oil cooler especially in a cluttered 2.8tgv engine bay), then add £350 for an alloy radiator to make up for the extra cooling demands, add £350 for the NAS console etc etc etc and you, very quickly, have a LARGE parts bill.

Torque convertors. Well, IIRC, the Tdi, 2.5D (6 cylinder BMW job) and ?TD5? all use the small 8/9" torque convertor and, yes, they aren't the strongest things in the world but I've never had problems (oh and, IIRC, all V8s, appart from early 4.6s that use a 12", use a 10" TC). The real issue is the lock up clutch isn't terribly strong and can be made to slip (ie apply power on at cruising speed and the TC 'slips'). I've not found this a problem even in my heavy 90 however I do have short gearing which'll help. If I have issues I will go and get the M&D conversion (not cheap at £700 odd) and then have a 12" custom TC made to suit a tuned 2.8 tgv. Unfortuanatly there's no simple, of cheap, solutions.

My experience whith people who've done this conversion is that skimping and cutting corners doesn't save much in the long run. However, all the gearboxes are in vehicles that get used hard off road so have a hard life.

P.S. I've tried an Isuzu 2.8 behind a V8 autobox and I thought it was fine - not much worse than mine. If you get the M&D conversion this might be something to look at to save a pound or 2.

[SOA 93]

Orange, the choice is up to you. Basically, put it where you want - to keep the t.box where it is now you need the engine back 3" from the 300 tdi position. IIRC this is how Simon Buck's 300tdi auto 90 was setup.

Price wise, the conversion costs as much as you want it to. By all means find an old disco to bastardise but a lot of the parts don't suit going into a 90 and do you really want to use a gearbox that's an unknown quantity? One of the few people I know who've done this ended up with a very dead gearbox. If you're going to use the gearbox in a challenge machine with anything more interesting than a tweeked Tdi (ie a tweeked TD5 or 2.8) you're wasting your time with an HP22 spec box so you can add £1350 odd for an HP24 spec build up. Add the core charge (£300 for me), add the backplate (£100 as I found a second hand one), add an M&D HD flexplate (£100 IIRC) and you're already at nearly £1900! Add a £100 for random brakets and conversion parts, £150 for aero spec hoses for an oil cooler, add £300 for a Laminova cooler (IMHO the best setup for a 90 as there are very few sensible places to mount an oil cooler especially in a cluttered 2.8tgv engine bay), then add £350 for an alloy radiator to make up for the extra cooling demands, add £350 for the NAS console etc etc etc and you, very quickly, have a LARGE parts bill.

Torque convertors. Well, IIRC, the Tdi, 2.5D (6 cylinder BMW job) and ?TD5? all use the small 8/9" torque convertor and, yes, they aren't the strongest things in the world but I've never had problems (oh and, IIRC, all V8s, appart from early 4.6s that use a 12", use a 10" TC). The real issue is the lock up clutch isn't terribly strong and can be made to slip (ie apply power on at cruising speed and the TC 'slips'). I've not found this a problem even in my heavy 90 however I do have short gearing which'll help. If I have issues I will go and get the M&D conversion (not cheap at £700 odd) and then have a 12" custom TC made to suit a tuned 2.8 tgv. Unfortuanatly there's no simple, of cheap, solutions.

My experience whith people who've done this conversion is that skimping and cutting corners doesn't save much in the long run. However, all the gearboxes are in vehicles that get used hard off road so have a hard life.

P.S. I've tried an Isuzu 2.8 behind a V8 autobox and I thought it was fine - not much worse than mine. If you get the M&D conversion this might be something to look at to save a pound or 2.

Well Will, no one could accuse you of cutting corners!!

Well Orange as you can see, there's more than one way to skin a cat....... sell your 90 spend the £3500 loose change you've got in your pocket on a 300TDI disco and use the funds from the sale of your 90 to trick out your Disco!?

I bought my Disco for £1700 110k complete with 12 months MOT, got the failure ticket that showed all it needed was a TRE, my intention was to swap the box for a manual which I already have, and then sell it on.

Only I found myself enjoying it quite alot and it makes a great work tool, so I'm keeping it.

I had to trawl through about 200 disco's on the Auto Trader site before I found it, no one else had been to look at it, most punters are not interested in Auto's.

When the ZF22 in mine eventually gives up I shall indeed get it swapped for an HP24 internalled version but not before.

I assume these conversion kits offered by Conversion & Precision and MDE make the need for the Disco back plate unnecessary.

Assuming you don't want to spent £3000+ on your 90 then looking for a Disco is an option if you have the funds available replacement LT77's out of Disco's are hard to give away, you may not get everything you need for the conversion but you won't be far off.

In terms of power capability then I think even a ZFHP22 is stronger than a LT77 or R380, but I don't know what use you will be putting your 90 to. Remember that the 300TDIAuto has eletronically controlled pump, meaning its a chip upgrade or pump change to tweak it.

I've measured the the box's I have, these dimensions are from the back af the block to the rear most edge of the brake drum, rounded to the nearest 5mm and done with a tape measure.

Disco 200TDI Auto 1005mm

Disco 200TDI Man 1015mm

90/110 lt77 875mm

Those figures include relevant back plate/ fly wheel housings.