b101uk

“I'd be very interested in the calculations for centre of gravity” Well the fact the front/back and left/right 4 point loads are near the same says that the CoG is ~central to the wheelbase (Y) and ~central wheel track (X) the only thing you don’t know it the height of the CoG from the ground (Z) If the CoG is at 50% point in the X,Y and Z plane then for every 1deg of angle 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R% of the mass is transfer to the lower contact points from the upper contact points, if a it tips over at 45.0deg then that means the CoG height (Z) = the distance from the outer contact point to the centre point in the plane the object is being tipped If the rise in mass per 1deg of tilt is >1.1111111111111111111111111111111R% then the CoG is higher and it will tip over at <45deg, if the rise is lower than <1.1111111111111111111111111111111R% then the CoG is lower and it will tip over at >45deg E.G1 Now lets say you get 1.5474% rise in mass per 1 deg then the CoG would cause the object to fall over at 50 / 1.5474 = 32.31deg if you then take 90deg / 32.31deg = 2.7855153203342618384401114206128, So 100 / 2.7855153203342618384401114206128 = 35.90% So if the outer contact points were 1.85m apart then 1.85m – 35.90% = 1.18585m witch is the height of the CoG in the Z plane. E.G2 Now lets say you get 0.674822222222222222222222222222% rise in mass per 1 deg then the CoG would cause the object to fall over at 50 / 0.674822222222222222222222222222 = 74.09 deg if you then take 90deg / 74.09deg = 1.214738831151302469968956674315 So 100 / 1.214738831151302469968956674315 = 82.32% So if the outer contact points were 1.85m apart then 1.85m – 82.32% = 0.32708m witch is the height of the CoG in the Z plane. E.G3 Now lets say you get 1.1111111111111111111111111111111% rise in mass per 1 deg then the CoG would cause the object to fall over at 50 / 1.1111111111111111111111111111111 = 45 deg if you then take 90deg / 45deg = 2 So 100 / 2 = 50% So if the outer contact points were 1.85m apart then 1.85m – 50% = 0.925m witch is the height of the CoG in the Z plane. In the above you will see the numbers 50 90deg & 100 witch are constants, in other words using 100 can be equivalent to using 90deg or 100% of mass or using 50 to represent 45deg as 45deg is 50% of 100, 50 is also the point at ware once the mass of the CoG goes beyond this point it will fall over, etc, etc. and the above can be used in X or Y vs. Z CoG calcs The point being is gravity is a constant as is the mass of the object and to a relative degree the dimensions of the wheels other than tyre deflection and suspension travel or design. 100% mass / 90deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 75% mass / 67.5deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 50% mass / 45deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 25% mass / 22.5deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 12.5%mass / 11.25deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 6.25% mass / 5.625deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 3.125% mass / 2.8125deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 1.5625% mass / 1.40625deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 0.78125% mass / 0.703125deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R 0.390625% mass / 0.3515625deg = 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R Of cause this is b101uk’s dyslexic simpleton dumb idiots version devoid of needlessly complex equation witch you wont find on the net or in a textbook, witch should mean you wouldn’t need an A level or O level or even a CSE, cos I don’t!!!!! Besides anyone with a winch on the 4x4 should know all this anyway, because for every 1 deg of slope 1.1111111111111111111111111111111R% mass is put as load onto the winch in addition to all the other loads. b101uk

the difference in the L/R mass on each axle is the mass of the diff and its offset on the axle, if you look at the image of the mass on the digital readout, the front R and the rear L have the diff nearest to them (beam axles and 4 point scales don't work to well for cross axle mass due the the high unsprung mass of the axle its self)

i did say "get an emergency stop button and mount it near the winch in a prominent easily assessable place and have it so when winching it is spliced into the stop cellunoid on the injector pump effectively stopping the engine without the need to get back to the cab, but have it so when using on the road it is disconnected to avoid kids from pressing it for a laugh " glad it was a cheep fix for you even if it did cost time! b101uk

"he would be one of the most reconised Australains, far more so than our Prime Minister" there are Melbourne housewifes that are more reconised than the Australain PM! Its a sad fact that if you work with dangerous things all the time, you tend to become blasé with less dangerous things witch are the ones that kill you. If you work with 25KV electric all day, you may be a bit blasé with 250v and it will be the 250v that will kill you. If you work high up as a steeplejack etc you will probably fall off a stepladder in your home and break your neck. Steve Irwin like the currant crop of extreme wildlife people spend to much time playing to the camera there own ego and not that of the wildlife or habitat they are portraying, would sir David Attenborough & the BBC's Natural History Unit programs be quite will reseved the world over if Attenborough’s ego got in the way of the wildlife etc they are portraying as Irwin's did. To me it was a: program about Steve Irwin "macho Australian" + some wildlife.. b101uk

"Ive had a Sykes Pickavant one for the last 20 years. No problems so far" alot of Sykes Pickavant Torque wrenchs are made by Norbar i have 2 Norbar, 1 Sykes Pickavant and 2 Britool (big and very big) but Facom own all the above anyway b101uk

“What winch set up have you go yerself then ?” I have a Fairey 525 P.T.O on the front of my LR90, it’s a bog standard vehicle, but for years it was used for work pulling big trees down with the stumps attached! Obviously digging was involved as we are talking 1m+ diameter! But when you put ~7000kg of pull 50ft to 70ft up a tree and you attach enough immovable mass to the back of the land rover its surprising what will happen, ~7000kg pull at 50ft is = to ~350000kg at 1ft I was going to convert it to hydraulic as I have a spear PTO hydraulic pump for the back of the lt230 to replace PTO drop box and a suitable motor to drive the 525 but I have other more important things on my land rover & Unimog to do, but I really would like a rear mounted Fairey 525 or mayflower as well, simply as people strangely don’t like them or perhaps it’s the names that scares them off, oh the irony b101uk

Hi “stall load is stall load - by its definition its when the winch ceases to pull and stalls............ at that load it isnt pulling, maximum pull would for the purposes of this discussion be the maximum load the winch is capable of pulling surely? or would it be more convenient to claim a 200tonne maximum pull? the winch would certainly have stalled at that point? ahh yes seems thats par for the course with leccy winches so I see your point.” I see your point, but if something will lift or pull say 12000lb then I add an extra 1lb and it stalls, is it a 12000lb winch or is it a 12001lb which? There is still 12000lb or 12001lb load hanging off the end of it regardless of if its staled or not, load dose not evaporate when something stops, just the requirement for HP evaporates You then get onto the legal side of things, it is a requirement for a manufacture to clearly state the maximum load something will exert, witch is ALWAYS at stall load, as this is the point the mechanism comes to a stop due to maximum load vs. available power etc, otherwise it becomes far to hard for average people to calculate the maximum load working from percentile figures other than 100% or having to account for speed in equations, much like we are doing now ”Pressure drop over motor ports is a fair point although performance figures mitigate this to a fair degree with flow rate hence manufacturers providing torque figures at given flow rates and pressures - if winch systems were so poorly designed that they provided insufficient pressure drop over the ports due to backpressure in the lines the winch effort would be minimal, the simple method of testing the physics is to no-load the system, apply maximum flow rate and watch the pressure guage - flow rate defficiencies would be fairly easy to spot. feel free to come and have a look at mine, I would welcome the input (and no I dont sell them)” I agree with that. ”moving onto units of power, rather than bushells per ox month lets try kW, Hydraulic power is (Flow rate (ltr per min) x Pressure (bar)) / 600 60ltr per min x 205bar = 12300/600 = 20.5kW (27.49hp) If you want to go back to imperial measurements then using a 240ft/lb motor the first wrap of the winch at would equate to (240x6) x 10.5"( winch centre 3" O/D) = 15120lbs, not a lot I guess...” I think part of the reason that you see different things to me, is we work from different ends of the same system using different units and formulas, I tend to work from the hook backwards witch conveniently means I don’t have to calculate the “efficiency” of each part of the system or it is easily assessed from differences in input/output, I have a feeling you are working from the pump end forwards witch means you have to calculate the efficiency as part of your equation, it intrigues me that you are using a circumference witch would be used a speed/distance oriented calculation, rather than a radius witch is used in basic leverage (torque) witch is what a winch is. using a 240lb @ 1ft radius to the motor shaft and a 6:1 gear ratio I expect <1440lb @ 1ft radius to the winch drum, 1440lb @ 1ft = 17280lb @ 1in, if the centreline of the cable on the 1st layer is 3in radius from the drum centre, then 17280lbin / 3 = 5760lb @ 3in radius, to check this is correct 12” / 3” = 4, so 5760lb @ 3in radius / 4 = 1440lb @ 1ft / 6 = 240lb @ 1ft radius to the motor shaft, so we have calculated in a full circle back to the starting point so know its correct! If I equate this to my PTO FW525, witch has a 48:1 gear ratio and a maximum torque input at the PTO shaft of 85lb/ft and a 1st layer centreline radius of 3.12” then, 85lbft * 48 = <4080lbft * 12 = <48960lbin / 3.12” = <15692.3lb line pull at stall the long and short of it would be a load cell, the carp stops there and I think it would be interesting to see real world performance of ALL the winches out there, I dont think there is a perfect setup merely whatever works for you but having watched electric winches spit the dummy time after time Im staying with my crappy slow, feable hydro it goes places, it pulls all day and all night and does it without failure for 8 days straight. Very true, its very easy to make a primitive but accurate load indicator that would work on all winches, it just takes a hydraulic ram of a known surface area and a pressure gauge screwing into it after you have manually charged it with oil, so at zero pull the gauge reads 0psig and at x pull the gauge would read ##psig vs. ram surface area = line pull Like you I wouldn’t have an electric winch, my FW525 is now 21 years old and has worked very hard in the past, just need to find a >20000lb hydraulic winch to put on my Unimog. mmm a winch-off sounds good, but only 600m or 1km, why not go the hole hog for 1mile ~1.61km it will give me a chance to make a brew for you all as you cross the line after me Should that not be Elecly vs PTO Hydro power vs. strait PTO power

Hi The overload clutch is in the pto, its under the red plastic cover, its a simple spring loaded dog type ratchet, witch you preload by putting a torque wrench on the output shaft of the PTO ware the prop would go on, and adjusting the faceless nut with a grub screw in it (under the red cover), until the ratchet unlocks at Xlbft load on the torque wrench. For the FW 525 witch used the same pto drive, most left SW/FW set at 45lbft, the maximum is 85lbft, but the 525 has a 48:1 gear ratio, but I don’t know what the gear ratio or drum radius is of the H14 is, to tell you the correct value!!!!!!!! Use: Place transfer box in neutral. Forward gears in the main gearbox pull in winch rope. Reverse gear pays out winch rope. Maximum pull is in 1st gear at engine tick over RPM, if you have a hand throttle get the engine tick over as low as possible (you are after very low HP & your full ##lbft allotment of torque to avoid tripping the overload ratchet, witch adding HP i.e. RPM dose, HP = load vs. speed) Just be very careful with PTO winches, they are more dangerous than electric or hydraulic when being operated by 1 person, if you get caught up in one it will keep pulling until the ratchet goes, and there is no way to reverse the winch unless you can get back into the cab, there is no button or dead man device to let go of like the other systems if you are out of the cab!!!! Don’t clime underneath the land rover with the pto running to look at the pretty prop shafts spinning & start touching them or lie near them with lose clothing or long hair, if it grabs you it will happily rip what ever bit it was off Were possible, always use 2 people to operate a pto winch, if you have to operate it by your self stay in the cab, mount a mirror at an angle on the front of the bonnet so you can see from the cab that the cable is spooling on correctly to save getting in and out etc, and for an extra margin of safety as there is no means of a dead mans device, get an emergency stop button and mount it near the winch in a prominent easily assessable place and have it so when winching it is spliced into the stop cellunoid on the injector pump effectively stopping the engine without the need to get back to the cab, but have it so when using on the road it is disconnected to avoid kids from pressing it for a laugh b101uk

“100% rated pull doesn’t mean stall speed” Sorry but 100% pull HAS TO MEAN STALL SPEED, no ifs ands buts! Doh or it would pull >100% RATED load, witch is an no-no unless you are load testing for the purpose of S.W.L or structural testing for the purpose of M.B.L BS 7906 requires a factor of safety of 8:1 for lifting (S.W.L, M.B.L / 8 = S.W.L) BS EN 1492-2 requires at least 7:1, Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations (M.B.L, RATED load * 7 = M.B.L) Or you have delibretly set you PRV to much lower, in witch case however you cut it, maximum pull will still be a stall speed for the preshur the motor is runing at via a reduction in the PRV seting! If the winch was rated at 80% like Boughton do then that’s fine, you can have a rated pull and still have line speed, BUT any winch or lifting device unless its say quite specifically says 80% rating etc then anything that says RATED “PULL” or “LOAD” is always assumed to be 100% load ware stall takes place, ware conversely unless it specifically says “line speed @ rated load” or words to that effect, then its always assumed to be maximum “free load line speed”. Look at it this way if you are pulling 12000lb @ 30ft/min or 0.5ft/sec then you still have HP left to convert fully to torque, hp = torque vs. speed, ergo if something is pulling 12000lb @ 30ft/min its not a 12000lb winch! 550lb @ 1ft/sec is the same as 1100lb @ 0.5ft/sec, 12000lb / 1100lb = 10.909090909090909090909090909091HP or for arguments sake 10.9HP this is the amount of HP required to move the above load @ the above speed, witch means the winch system still has 10.9HP or 359700lb/min 5995lb/sec of potential pull at the rope end to dissipate as net load still remaining before stall, witch would mean the winch would have a rating of at lest 18000lb (12000lb + 5995lb HP potential) 12000lb * 60sec = 720000lb/min, if 33000lb @ 60ft/min = 1hp (550lb @ 1ft/sec) then 66000lb @ 30ft/min also = 1hp, so 720000lb/min / 66000lb = 10.909090909090909090909090909091HP If the hydraulic motor that powers the MM winch has a maximum torque of 394nm = 290.5lbft and the winch a gear ratio of 6:1, then can some one tell me how the hell you expect 12000lb out of it a 2.5” drum centre? 290.5lbft * 6 = 1743lb @ 1ft from drum centre, or 20916lb @ 1” drum centre, 2” drum centre = 10458lb, 3” drum centre = 6972lb, 4” drum centre = 5229lb, 5” drum centre = 4183.2lb, 6” drum centre = 3486lb, ergo at 2.5” drum centre with a motor with 394nm (290.5lbft) of torque and a winch gear ratio of 6:1 then the maximum pull will be <8366.4lb and not >12000lb or even >10000lb for that mater! And that doesn’t include mechanical losses threw friction etc witch normally range from 5% to 10% in gear system due to oil viscosity & thrust losses in the gear train (gears pushing them self’s apart) “Pressure drop figures aren’t necessary - look up the performance graphs of the pump and motor, hydraulics manufacturers tend to be helpful like that” Yes they are very helpful like that, BUT performance graphs of the pump and motors are given at know Pressure both in feed and return pipes &/or spindle loads if you look carefully, as no 2 different systems will have the same Pressure drop in the motor return lines in different application due to the amount of internal restriction from pipe bends and hose length, filtration, valve blocks, etc, etc, so the potential torque and HP output will vary moderately with this, a motor with full pressure drop on the return and a drain pipe will produce significantly more torque & hp at much border speed range than a 2 pipe motor that has a partial pressure drop on the return. b101uk

"If you had two winches with similer performance curves what would you do if: One ran at 10,500lb pull and 50ft/min under load? one ran at 12,500lb pull but 30ft/min under load?" "32ft/Min at full load" err guys you canot have a winch that has 100% line pull at any other speed than 0ft/min, as 100% pull is at stall speed or 0HP, as the full HP quotant has to be converted in to torque, flow = HP = line speed, preshur = torque = line pull 1HP = 550lb/ft/sec or 33000lb/ft/min of work, e.g. 550lb @ 1ft a second = 1hp, 1lb @ 550ft a second = 1hp, 275lb @ 275ft a second = 1hp, etc, etc, etc. also remember you canot calculate the true torque of a hydraulic motor unless you know the preshur difrence from the input and output ports (i.e. preshur drop in the return line) b101uk

the only one i know is http://www.hlsmith.co.uk/ thay have done a fue propshafts for me and have also cut new gears in the past as well, but thay are Nr Wolverhampton. b101uk

Hi Up to 30% petrol can be put into diesel to stop waxing when cold & a mix up to 50% for kerosene (28sec) or other petroleum’s is also allowed as theas are the accepted means of stopping waxing when fuel additives are not available, pretty much any diesel engine will happily run on just kerosene or most other petroleum’s, but unless you have a multy fuel injector pump its life will be significantly shortened due to the fact that kerosene dose not have the ash, sulphur or lubricating oil quality’s of diesel fuel or injector pumps generally require. As far as HP fuel pumps go that are mounted in fuel tanks etc for CRD they will suffer the same, but more damage is done to them by water and dirt in the fuel than would be done by kerosene. But I would just say they were unlucky. b101uk

Luckily I have never had to have a vehicle SVA, as they have either had EU wide type approval from the manufacture, or are exempt from needing a SVA due to the category they are being registered in, besides if you pick a Q witch is the lowest of the low form from the off, they know you are not trying to pass something of as newer than it is or as something it inset, as Q is of indeterminate age or origin, normally you get a choice if you can provide documents that prove date of manufacture Lets face it, if you Q plate something before you modify it what can the DVLA/VOSA do? if your land rover 90 looks like a 404 Unimog but its on Q plates? All they are trying to do is catch out people how are trying to pass things off as something they are not or avoiding paying something! If you pass they get age related plates if not they get Q’s if your are on Q’s what is there to fail on? There are plenty of Q plate ex-MOD land rovers out there, on a Q-plate there is not really much requirement to have much of the original vehicle beyond say the vin plate etc so you have a pretty free hand to create from the off Just my thoughts Steve Hiatt True, but the latter is dependent on you being a farmer and travailing from your land to your land 9.2km a week, the former is not reliant on that, as you can be a contractor without land, but carry out tasks for farmers as the farmer would himself? b101uk

I like Q plates, they are good for hiding the age of a vehicle without the expense and hassle of private plates, and most of my past cars/bikes/trucks/tractors have been Q-plates regardless of their cost or newness or originality. "Regardless of anything, I'd have said something like Andy's moglite I'd have thought would have been a pretty good case for being registered as an agricultural implement." Unless it dose agricultural, horticultural or forestry work or is on hire to a public authority for the purpose of snow/ice clearing or the spreading of salt or driving of stone crushing equipment, or the cutting of hedges or trees bordering public roads and is capable by design to pull/lift an implement and is being used “predominately” for the purpose of agricultural, horticultural or forestry, then there is no case for it being “registered as an agricultural implement or tractor” b101uk