Jocklandjohn

Thanks Mark. I wanted to make this 'real' and let folks see that its not all guys-with-workshops-and-all-the-tools that can do this stuff. And that meant all the wee steps that make it happen, and the cockups. I've been hugely frustrated with some other builds I've seen on forums where it reads like a join-the-dots straightforward exercise, and all that does is put off those of us who're not 'professionals' because it makes it seem you need all that gear to get a job done correctly. Mike's trailer is a great example of how to do it right - both the build and the recording of the process. He's set the bar very high with that excellent piece of work, and record of its build.

Mike's not differing in the slightest! I made full-size wooden templates of the 'awkward' bits - the curve over the windscreen across the roof, and the bit at back door with the curve upwards where the door top goes up in the gutter line. It's much easier to do it that way. I actually made a paper template of the curves which I transferred to the ply, which I then transferred to the alloy! I found doing the drawings (which I posted previously) a really useful way to think around what was going on and where I might trip up and get a sense of how it might evolve.* Edit* EVOLVE is the word because things will change as you progress and either realize 'planned' things dont work, and unplanned things make more sense. I'm sure Mike will have had the same experience. I started with the intention of using alloy glues but the reality of doing it properly in my situation - outside in all weathers - made it impractical, and that changed the physical design quite substantially.

Thanks Will. This type of work is mainly dependent on a few vital things - plans - so you can work out what you're doing, a decent tape and sharp pen - to make sure the marking/cutting is accurate - and a sense of humour so you can laugh at your cockups! The clips I've used are the shorter ones but not entirely sure if they are 76mm ones. The marine chandlers recently changed supplier so the ones shown in the website are probably NOT what they'll supply. The website ones have no hole for padlock. The body of the ones I got is 50mm long. That's from the top of the main clip body (top end of screw thread in this pic) down to the end of the curved bit that you lift up.

I could have used heavier alloy for the roof but my calcs came up with quite substantial weight as a consequence. I reckoned I could do it lighter. After a lot of deliberation I went for relatively light material and the method I've chosen gives me maximum strength, minimal weight and pretty good versatility. I only need four bars across for the roof-rack. The front and rear ones will be supported on the stronger ends, so its really only the other two which need some bracing. To be honest the roof will probably be fine without as all the weight is coming down into the gutter, but I want to be on the safe side.

This is my initial idea for the roof rack, combined with guide for the dropping roof section. Basically a triangular plate that extends up to the level of the roof bars. Roof bars are ally pipe spanning the roof and inserted at each end through the a flat bar (or L bar) running longitudinally on the roof edge. The ally pipe will protrude far enough through the flats on either side so that it can 'rest' in the shaped top of the triangular plate. And the triangle plates will be bolted through the new alloy side, into a large bracket I'll weld up from steel which will be firmly fastened to the curve of the old roof underneath, and will hold the whole plot rigid. These will also be fastened to the interior fittings and bed enabling the whole thing to have considerable integrity. This method means that the weight of stuff on the roof bars - my sea kayaks, or open canoe - will not be supported solely by the new roof, but will have the load transferred down into the gutter and through the bolts and bracket to the vehicle interior. And of course these triangle plates protrude up quite far so they'll be perfect guides for the lifting roof as it is lowered. I'll put in a Delrin or similar strip, cut to a wedge shape, on the back of the triangle plate to allow a nice smooth slide in. Nylon from cheap chopping boards is quite good for this.

Force Four storm hatch here. Not cheap £166 + VAT (£8.99 delivery). I looked at Seitz ones that are used on the fancy camper vans and yes they're nice but they're pretty flimsy, and for the price I'd rather have bomb-proof. So a boat deck hatch seemed ideal - very robust, 12mm thick perspex, solid alloy frame, tough as old boots hinges and the seals are designed to withstand prolonged marine use and thundering seas crashing onto the thing so I figured it 'might' not leak on a LandRover! And I'm fitting it over where my head will be when I'm sleeping so thought a decent size and easy operation would be nice to have. Sometimes it's worth using some of the savings you make by doing things yourself to splash out a bit on some of the fittings that make it more comfortable. For me cost-cutting on something like this is pointless.

Well here's todays progress - those of you who've followed the thread will know I got the lifting lid bit a tad off-square - mainly due to having to weld it up off the roof, so effectively without the 'template' provided by the Land Rover itself. So to remedy that I've 'released' the tack welds on the box section bracing on one side, and the top of the corner seam welds, and then used the van as a guide, put on the side clips and pulled it down tight and into the correct shape, then braced the corners and pop-rived on the end of the box section where I split the weld. Once its rewelded I can grind off the top of the rivet to get a flat surface for putting the roof sheet down onto. Corner welds split all round. End of box riveted on to hold it correctly for the welder. Bracing across each corner to keep it to correct angles when lifted off for re-welding. Had to make sure that when I adjusted the frame shape that I didn't mess up the hole for the roof hatch. Hatch fits perfectly (1mm clearance all round perfect for mastic). Self-supporting hinge mechanism is really good. And it goes over to 180 degrees too (not shown here). Low profile too - it will be 1" less than the height of the roof bars I'm intending to fit. Welder is off on a job until Wednesday so it'll be a few days until I can possibly get back in to have the few tacks redone. Meanwhile I've got some acid-etch primer to do the roof panel which is still covered with its protective plastic film so that saves me a lot of faffing about cleaning. Plan is to prime and coat (white) the roof sheet panel so it only leaves the horizontal faces of the lifting portion to do once its all together. Paint plan is blue (same as rest of van) up to the lifting portion, and then the top white. So it will look like a 'traditional' Land Rover paint job of x colour and white roof. The white should make the roof look lower too. Although it looks quite tall as it is, the whole new roof (top and bottom sections combined) is actually only 5" higher than the top of the existing roof

Thanks Mike - that's neat. I'm thinking more of something no more than 6mm thick, maybe thin alloy glued to ply backing, with each side being in two pieces, and either hinged in the middle (could be either conventional piano hinge or some of the new folding nylon/rubber types) or with a male/female joint - ball profile on one side, cup profile on the other - I've seen this stuff on folding caravans, its light and strong and great for making simple joints. It will also have added advantage of making the panel very rigid by creating a strong structural joint. Then when I need hard sides I can clip them in using the clasps already attached to the existing top/bottom of the fixed roof. Done properly this could be very strong and rigid. So fabric for summer and clip-ins for dodgy weather and autumn/winter. As they're fairly thin there will be very little weight penalty. They could be carried inside somewhere (attached to the roof?), or outside between the roof bars.

Velcro is pretty versatile and will be perfect on your van. I'm guessing though that your sleeping area is low down so if you get caught in a really wild night you can drop the lid? As we'll be sleeping up top a really wild night could be problematic with velcro - hence the pocket/flat bar/ bolts and substantial fabric. However - once I have the lid properly fixed and establish the dimensions of the side panels and have figured out whether I can clip in temporary rigid side panels I may be able to go for lighter fabric.

Mike - I'll have a good look at their stock - they make all sorts of stuff so I should have a bit of choice. Holding it in - well I'm going to get them to fold the fabric back on itself so that there double fabric where it 'folds' over the top of the upstand on the lower (fixed) section. I'll have them stitch through to make a long pocket into which I'll put a thin strip of alloy that will be bolted through onto the upstand. Here's the strip: And here's how it will be fixed on to the upstand of the bottom profile: I'll keep the fabric up from the bottom horizontal face which should prevent water being soaked up into the fabric and getting mouldy. Here's the drawing: The top is basically the same method but fastened to the ply lining of the inner roof, which will have some wood battens (20mm x 20mm) glued in behind which will provide a fastening point (as well as the alloy box sections running across the width). As the top edge is going to be fastened on to the inner horizontal face of the roof, with the pocket facing outwards (ie bolts will be on the outside of the fabric) it should not allow any water in. I'll put silicon on it as well.

Thanks Mike and Ralph. Sides will be some form of sail-style fabric, maybe lightly rubberized nylon - the local tarpaulin maker had a look at the plans and was really excited about doing something different, and had several material types they could use. They make bouncy castles too and that stuff is pretty tough, so maybe something like that but a little lighter might suffice. If I make it out of quite strong fabric I can get it really taut when its open so that will prevent it flapping too much and keeping me awake.

Current progress: slight hold up of a technical nature. The welding kit wont reach outside so all the welding has demanded that I lift the new roof assembly off and lay it in the welding shop to have all the work done. We tried as hard as poss to keep the two sections square, but have apparently only managed it with the base which fits perfectly to the original roof. However the top has crept out of alignment by a bit more than is acceptable, due to several factors (one being the LandRover not being perfectly square). SO a few days ago I cut the welds of the four corners (only on the top seams, didn't touch the vertical welds) and also released the tack welds along one side on the box section bracing. It immediately went 'ping' and sprung into the correct shape once I sat it back on the roof. But remedying this has made a decision for me that I was contemplating anyway......fastening the roof down is ideally done from inside, but the billowing fabric makes this quite complicated, so I've decided I'll do it on the outside with several of these and they will not only keep it down but pull it to the correct location at the outer edge of the lower section, with the added bonus of keeping it all properly aligned whilst I reweld it. But these clips may also allow temporary hard sides to be clipped in if I need them - for winter use and really windy nights. So I'll have the fabric for summer and the option of adding the hard sides when required. They can be relatively thin (maybe 6mm) in two pieces for each side and stored inside with minimal weight penalty. I just need to add another clip set to them and they'll fasten up tightly when the roof is lifted. I'll have a couple of locking clips only accessible on the inside though so that the roof is locked down tight and opening the outer clips wont allow entry. Anyway this morning I got the clips from the yacht chandlers (stainless steel) and fitted them on the side. Might seem overkill, but they not only hold the top down tightly (NB the rubber seal is NOT yet fitted, but the clips are adjustable so they allow for this) they also help to keep it aligned - as the clip has a small upstand that goes above the lip of the alloy they help keep the sides in the correct place. I need to drill and countersink another hole in the clip as the supplied holes are not in the correct place - well one is, but the other two are not use. I'm not sure about keeping the eyehole - might be useful to stop vibration from popping them open - I can stick a little clip in there to lock it. Clip located Close up - you can see the 'lip' created by the clip standing above the alloy surface. All aligned nicely (yes its still raining - well sleeting today). And when I get round to making removable hard sides these will allow the panels to be clipped in and tightly held. As you can see there's a couple of wooden battens across the roof - they're holding the roof to the correct width - since I released the side weld joints the alloy has bowed out - it will pull in when I refix it but for the time being the wood does the job. And the front - all aligned nicely and looking not too bad. Now that the clips are on they pull the top section into the correct position so I can tack weld the box sections and corner to keep it right, pop the top sheet of 1.2mm alloy on and temporarily fix it so that when I lift the top section off for proper welding it will (I hope) stay in alignment. We'll see!

Three weeks of dripping ice-cold water was torture!

Mine does it off and on, sometimes bad, other times not so bad (totally unrelated to weather!) and has being doing this for over a decade. When its unbearable I simply stuff a J-cloth in the inside gutter bit above the window, trail the tail down and out the window (open a crack) and as you drive the wet end outside gets dried and the water wicks down from the inside and gets sooked out. Simple and effective and totally ludicrous. (Mind you I had to do the same in the house several winters ago when the ice build-up overwhelmed the wall cavity where it meets the roof as the gutter got turned into a giant icicle, and melt water streamed inside - solved by two lengths of plastic gutter on the inside with end caps, suspended up high in the window recess, hole drilled in one end of the gutter with a j-cloth stuffed in the hole and string tied on the end of the j-cloth to wick the water down into a bucket where it could be safely dumped back outside. Insurance claims adjuster thought it was inspired.)

Managed to get in with the welder on Saturday morning for a 7.30am start - just for a few hours as Stevie had an appointment later in the morning, but he was back in later in the day so we were able to finish it. Got the brackets tacked on that fix the lower section of the new roof to the existing roof. Bit concerned about the heat warping the alloy but although the weld locations are slightly visible from the outside they're not unduly noticeable and I may fix a pair of long swing-out brackets to support an awning on there anyway, at least on one side, which will conceal any slight imperfections. I could have bolted on the brackets through the face but I'm trying to make the least number of holes in the new roof as possible to minimize water ingress. It is a Land Rover after all............. Then the box section bracing for the lifting portion of the roof was laid out. This is where the pair of wooden 'rods' I'd prepared previously (with the spacing for the box section marked out and slots for box pieces cut out) proved their worth. It was quick and easy to align and tack the individual cross-pieces, as they were held rigid and in precisely in the correct location by the wooden rods, which also helped to prevent any (rotational) twisting out of alignment. It made the welders job a lot easier. So whilst Stevie was tacking on I was able to get final and accurate sizes for the shorter box section pieces running long ways, and quickly cut them on the chopsaw. With everything fitting well, I brought in the roof hatch and we used that to align the final two short sections for the sides of the hatch to ensure the fit was perfect - the hatch has very tight tolerances for fit because of the quite tight corner curves, only a couple of mm or so, so working to the dead size of the hatch was ideal. Later on finally we got it all done and lifted it back onto the Land Rover roof, where the lower section (which had looked a mile off on the workshop floor) was forced back into shape. Whilst it was on the floor it looked terrible, the upper section's fit seemed really bad, but this improved when it was put back onto the vehicle. It was obvious that there has been a slight bit of warping (outwards) in the centre of the upper section - you can see it in the photo taken outside (yes its still raining, well almost snowing in fact). I reckon I'll need to get a couple of blocks of wood and stilson wrench onto it and 'tweak' it a bit to straighten it out. Have a few options to remedy this, just have to see which is best. Next job is to 'tweak' the lifting section with the hinge attached properly, to get it as 'square' with the lower section as possible, and then drill and loosely fasten the alloy sheet for the roof. By doing that I'll have holes pre-drilled for fitting the pop-rivets when I glue the sheet down and the panel will take the 'proper' alignment (all things going to plan!) when I'm working with it off the van and on the ground. Will have to think carefully about the roof rack construction. I'll pop up a drawing of a possible solution shortly for some comment.

Aye! It's one thing doing it 'loose' but once you fasten the hinges on there's a lot less leeway and any errors will be obvious. What I did establish by fitting it all together is that the actual vehicle must be slightly off-square - not much - between 5mm and 10mm from corner to corner, but once you translate that to a lifting roof section it becomes a slight problem that needs working around. Basically we can only weld indoors as the welding gear wont stretch far enough to do the welds in-situ on the old roof with the van outside, so we cant establish the correct angles for the new roof by using the old roof as a template. Instead I need to take the new roof off, carry it inside, and try to transfer the slight 'error' from the old roof to the new one, then adjust the lifting lid to suit so that when its seam-welded its held to the 'correct' angles and is not trying to fight its way around and buckling itself. It's not a huge pain, just something to be aware of and deal with so it doesn't come back to haunt me later!

Anyway recent progress as follows - stuck on the brackets for fastening the new roof to old roof using Tiger Seal so that the welder can simply tack away without having to faff about, and then established the locations for the holes for fixing the top leaf of the hinge into the elevating upper part of the new roof. I'd only had the hinge screwed to the lower roof up till now. Stuff laid out on ground. This was not an easy job. Mainly because I was on my own. Had to bodge up a ladder to elevate one end so that the other, hinged end, would fit, along with several lengths of wood to hold it up. Well when I say 'alone' - I wasn't entirely alone - I had company and a stern critic......... But I was able to use the offcut of the hinge to establish exactly where I needed to locate the holes in the top section, drill a few pilot holes, add a small drop of WD40 to each and then self-tap screw through. Lifted it up and over and....it fitted beautifully..... Propped it up on a couple of sticks and got a sense of how it will look. Works fine and has given me a good idea of what the front sealing options will be (how the fabric sides will finish at the front end). And then the rain stopped and the sun came out......

Hi John - thanks...relax......the proper (expert) welder is doing the inside stuff! It was me thinking out loud after seeing some of the HTS2000 stuff in action and wondering if it was a viable alternative for some bits of it, but after reading up about the stuff over the last few days I'm still not convinced and I'd rather it was all done to the same standard as the rest! Even though much of it is 'out-of-sight' it's still satisfying to know its done to a high standard. There's a few odd non-crucial bits on the outside that are not hugely load-bearing I'm thinking of trying the HTS on that would not entail a load of pain if they failed. Anyway, hopeful the welder can fit me in this weekend. Just got 25mm Kingspan for the roof insulation, and a couple of sheets of 6mm ply to put inside.

Thanks Mike - that's interesting. Online videos and several user comments show it as being incredibly strong, so I guess that's the downside of 'easy fix' strength.

Query for the welding experts: HTS2000 weldybrazy stuff? Would this be suitable for my purposes inside my aluminium liftup roof? I'm getting the proper welder fellow to do the pretty TIG welds on the outside of the frame for me - the ones that are seen and very structurally important. But there are a load more little spot welds needed inside to attach the various L brackets that bolt the new roof to the old roof, and to put in attachment points (lots more L brackets) for ply to be screwed to etc. which it would make sense to do myself. And there's also the 19mm box section framing for underneath the roof panel to do, needing attached to the frame and to itself to create the skeleton to support the roof sheet. Would this HTS stuff be suitably strong enough for all of this?

Query for the welding experts: HTS2000 weldybrazy stuff? Would this be suitable for my purposes inside my roof? I'm getting the proper welder fellow to do the pretty TIG welds on the outside of the frame for me - the ones that are seen and very structurally important. But there are a load more little spot welds needed inside to attach the various L brackets that bolt the new roof to the old roof, and to put in attachment points (lots more L brackets) for ply to be screwed to etc. which it would make sense to do myself. And there's also the 19mm box section framing for the roof panel to do, needing attached to the frame and to itself to create the skeleton to support the roof sheet. Would this HTS stuff be suitably strong enough for all of this?

Today, despite the rain I got the subframe box sections for the roof cut and made a wooden jig to fit inside to accurately space them so that when I take it to the welder he can just zip zip zip and not have to measure anything, then we remove the wood and he can tidy up the joints whilst I cut the longitudinal (short) box pieces to go in between. Wood cut, sloping end will ensure I get them the right way round at the welders! Cutting slots for the 19mm box at the required spacing, leaving a specific gap for the 500mm roof hatch. Wooden pieces for jig to hold 19mm box section, cut as a pair for accuracy. Detail of roof edge with space to pop in the weld. Ply square at far end is a template for the roof hatch cutting dimensions used to align 19mm box in the jig. Roof hatch laid in upside down to check size and location. Different angle. Roof sheet I got guillotined yesterday laid on just to check if the roof is square using the sheet as a guide - its not, it's out by 1/2" but I knew that already after doing a corner to corner measure so will need to attend to that when welding, which will not be too problematic - its only stitched at present so can be tweaked to remedy.

I recently started using BP Ultimate and have to say its transformed the engine astonishingly. It's quieter, more economical and the power increase is noticeable, pulling cleanly and smoke-free to 70mph with ease. Uphills are noticeably 'easier' too and its less smoky at all times. I think I'd rather pay the premium for Ultimate than stick some fluid of unknown effect into the lump.

ps - still have to do the calculations for struts my own roof, but until I get an idea of the weight it's all just vapourmaths!

This might help you Mike. Drawings. Love the way your trailer has turned out. Been following the build and think its inspired. Great to see pics of it out and about and being used at last. "Warm glow" !!