Td5 wont start low fuel pressure. Help plz

[yan46]

Hi all,

This is probably not the 1st time someone has mentioned this but my 1998 td5 70k won't start. It's cranks fine but just won't start. Apologies for the repeat in topic. I've been diagnosing the fault for ages to no avail. Firstly, I plugged in my nanocom and no faults recorded, which suggests a fuel problem. 

Before I bought a fuel pressure tester gauge I took out the old fuel pump has it was a bit noisy and replaced it with an aftermarket one. From experience changing the fuel pump normally does the trick. I performed the normal purging procedure. Ignition on leave for 3 mins until fuel pump cuts out, ignition off and back on and repeat process for like 6 times. Because my td5 is an early one the press throttle down fives and wait for MIL light to flash does not apply. Still won't start but it does seem to want to. So I thought Id change the injector seals and washers with aftermarket ones. I also changed the crank position sensor. I've had experience changing the seals successfully on previous jobs. Still won't start on this TD5. Changed the fuel filter and the tiny air bleed filter in the filter housing. Bought a new battery too.

So then I decided to buy a fuel pressure tester kit and actually measure the pressure. I put together a t piece setup with my gauge and connected one end to the high pressure feed that goes to the regulator and the other end to the inlet of the regulator. Ignition on and I get 3.8bar. 

I then connected my inline setup to the fuel return line before the fuel cooler and I get 1.5 bar. 

I then connected the gauge to the fuel return line after the fuel cooler and again 1.5bar.

Everytime I turn the ignition on the pump squeals for a few seconds before settling down. To me suggests I have trapped air and air is getting into the fuel system. 

Oil levels are fine and do not rise when cranking. So that indicates the injector seals are OK. 

I've checked the fuel pipes for leaks and cannot see anything. 

So lastly I recently changed the fpr and I measured the fuel pressure at the return line and got 3.5bar so I thought good it was the fpr. Then the next day I thought I'd measure it again to be sure and for some reason it measured 1.5bar again. 

I'm at a lost. I've probably got a duff new pump. Fuel in tank is pass the half way mark. Red ECU plug is dry and no oil. Relays seem fine and fuses. The fuel inertia switch is fine.

Any help and suggestions would be much appreciated. 

[Tanuki]

There's a tiny filter that sits between the FPR and the cylinder-head itself.

http://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/125043/1210/fuel_filter_strainer_td5_defender___discovery_2

If this gets clogged then it doesn't matter what the pressure supplied by the fuel-pump is, you won't get adequate pressure/flow in the in-head channel that feeds the injectors.

[Ally V8]

Have you tried bump starting it ? Could be that the starter is stopping it from starting...

[yan46]

I've replaced the small air bleed filter in the fuel filter housing already. That was the first thing I did.

[yan46]

On 30/09/2017 at 11:08 PM, Ally V8 said:

Have you tried bump starting it ? Could be that the starter is stopping it from starting...

Have not tried bump starting as space is pretty limited where I live unfortunately. I'd be up for trying it but I don't think my neighbours would appreciate me blocking the road if I couldn't get it started

[V8 Freak]

Where are you based??

The loud pump when initially turned on probably suggests either an air leak or fuel bleeding back out of the system somehow and needing to be pushed back up to pressure.

Can you clarify when it last ran and if it’s run at all since changing the injector seals etc.?

It really sounds like it needs bleeding through and it should run. 

Mines a later td5 with the purge facility, but occasionally when I’ve released the fuel from the system even after a few purges it needs some cranking with the throttle pedal held down until it catches and then usually sorts itself out.

Any chance of getting a decent boost from another vehicle while cranking with the pedal down to see if it does eventually catch?

[yan46]

3 hours ago, V8 Freak said:

Where are you based??

The loud pump when initially turned on probably suggests either an air leak or fuel bleeding back out of the system somehow and needing to be pushed back up to pressure.

Can you clarify when it last ran and if it’s run at all since changing the injector seals etc.?

It really sounds like it needs bleeding through and it should run. 

Mines a later td5 with the purge facility, but occasionally when I’ve released the fuel from the system even after a few purges it needs some cranking with the throttle pedal held down until it catches and then usually sorts itself out.

Any chance of getting a decent boost from another vehicle while cranking with the pedal down to see if it does eventually catch?

I'm based in Southampton.

Yes there's definitely air in the system i can't seem to get out. I've done the ignition on wait 3 mins or so until the fuel pump stops and ignition off and repeat process about 6 times and nothing. If I crank the motor and stop and immediately try again, it wants to start but just can't. 

I inherited the td5 with the problem. I was told it ran fine until it was run dry of fuel. 

I've tried hooking the battry up with my car for that extra boost but nothing.

Thought I'd plug my nanocom back and I got:

my nanocom has now picked up

 

INJECTOR 1 PEAK CHARGE SHORT, (LOGGED). 
 INJECTOR 2 PEAK CHARGE SHORT, (LOGGED). 
 INJECTOR 3 PEAK CHARGE SHORT, (LOGGED). 
INJECTOR 4 PEAK CHARGE SHORT, (LOGGED). 
INJECTOR 5 PEAK CHARGE SHORT, (LOGGED). 

I'm assuming these are old faults as they are 'logged'.

 

Argh Td5 fuel system!!

[Ally V8]

Peak charge faults often mean the injector firing capacitors in the engine ecu have given up.

[yan46]

So I sourced a Disco ECU NNN000120 connected it to my defender and read the faults. Nothing bad apart from a road speed missing which I've never seen before. Cleared the faults with my nanocom. I've also changed the ecu to non immobilised. I then recoded the injectors. Noticed the needle on the temperature gauge has shot to red even though it's cold but I know it's because of the disco ecu. Still won't start. Ive cranked and cranked and loads of white smoke. 

Battery was at around 12.2v before cranking. It wants to start more than the previous MSB ecu I had. Also previously there was no smoke with my 'duff' ecu. 

I can no longer hear air whirling in the fuel tank since I fitted the NNN ecu and did the purge 5 times pedal down procedure. 

Any ideas why it won't start? Battery voltage too low? I did trickle charge the battery for a day and a half.

This td5 is giving me such a bloody headache. I'm moving house in 2 weeks time and was hoping it would have started.

[steve200TDi]

From previous experience, TD5s are picky on voltage, I think it needs voltage over approx 11.5V, so if you have over 12V it should be fine. I had less than 11.5 and you get wierd things going on on the dash with lots of warning lights illuminated.

Once I had sorted out the battery voltage issue, it took a considerable amount of cranking but it did start. I think I did the purge cycle, but mainly had the battery hooked up to another running land rover and kept cranking. 

Try this with the original ECU and see if it works.

I guess the next step would maybe get the ECU checked if you think it's faulty.

Steve

[V8 Freak]

 I may be wrong but I don’t think ECU’s are swappable between Disco and Defender.

If it is going to work, you will need to use Nanocom to learn the 10AS code as a minimum. So it could start !

 

I’ll ask a friend about the ECU types and come back to you...

[yan46]

I thought the NNN000120 disco ecu would work on a 1999 defender.

Maybe I'm missing something out with my nanocom.

Yes do let me know thanks.

[V8 Freak]

It's his birthday so will have to wait until tomorrow.

I'm sure he said something like it will start and tickover but fuel / temp readings will be wrong etc.

I don't know if programming a Defender map in changes this... Tomorrow should get us some good advice.

 

To get the ECU and 10AS to talk, ignition on, Nanocom on, Defender/TD5/TD5 Engine/Utility and choose "Learn Security Code"

Hopefully it will show as successful.

[yan46]

17 minutes ago, V8 Freak said:

It's his birthday so will have to wait until tomorrow.

I'm sure he said something like it will start and tickover but fuel / temp readings will be wrong etc.

I don't know if programming a Defender map in changes this... Tomorrow should get us some good advice.

 

To get the ECU and 10AS to talk, ignition on, Nanocom on, Defender/TD5/TD5 Engine/Utility and choose "Learn Security Code"

Hopefully it will show as successful.

I did the learn security code feature and nanocom said ecu is not immobilised.

Let's see what your friend says

[Ally V8]

Even with Testbook T4 years ago I never had any problems swopping ecu's over to run an engine.The temp guage might be wrong,but it should run the engine.If the battery was at 12.2v BEFORE cranking,chances are it would run if it had some decent charge in it.The glow plugs and starter will soon kill it down below 9v,at which stage the ecu cannot make its decisions and do its job.Also at low voltages like this it is likely that the starter will be sending nasty spikes back up the positive lead which will corrupt the crank sensor output. 

[V8 Freak]

Have an answer back. He says Disco NNN0000120 with Defender map should be fine.

Wise to re-map it first as gauges will read wrong etc. but should start. "Should"

Edit:

He's just texted back and happy to send a stock Defender map for you to upload with Nanocom if you wish.

He needs to know if EU2 or EU3 engine.

Is it 10p or 15p engine / 2 or 3 way accelerator pedal etc.

 

As it's 1998 I'd assume 10p / EU2 but please confirm.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by V8 Freak
Add information...

[V8 Freak]

Just spotted you can't hear the furl pump any longer.... Check the inertia switch on the bulkhead inside the engine bay hasn't tripped.

You should hear the fuel pump every time the ignition is turned on. (Even if it's not gurgling..)

[V8 Freak]

Suggestion is that if EU3 you will have a fuel rail running externally on the engine along the inlet manifold. 

(Like the one below inside the dipstick)

[Ally V8]

EU2 or 3 and 2 or 3 track throttle pot is not going to make any difference in just getting the engine to run.If the fuel pump isn't running its unlikely to want to start.(They will start and run without the fuel pump running but it relies on a fully bled and well sealed system) TD5's can be difficult to start even after the purge cycle has been done a few times,especially if the injectors have been out. Best thing to do is tow it up the road,making sure the fuel pump is running,its alot kinder than beating up the already weak starter motor.Also gives full battery voltage to the ecu. 

[yan46]

so connected jump leads to my other landy (300tdi) and cranked the motor. Turns quicker but still won't start. Its coughing and spluttering alot with white smoke. It's like the injectors are not getting enough fuel. 
Ran the nanocom after all the cranking and I got an extra fault 'noisy crank signal has beendetected'. Any ideas anyone?
I'm at a loss.

[yan46]

10 hours ago, V8 Freak said:

Have an answer back. He says Disco NNN0000120 with Defender map should be fine.

Wise to re-map it first as gauges will read wrong etc. but should start. "Should"

Edit:

He's just texted back and happy to send a stock Defender map for you to upload with Nanocom if you wish.

He needs to know if EU2 or EU3 engine.

Is it 10p or 15p engine / 2 or 3 way accelerator pedal etc.

 

As it's 1998 I'd assume 10p / EU2 but please confirm.

 

 

Thanks for confirming. I could always try a Defender map but even with it I doubt it would start the motor. 

That's very kind of your friend.

Engine is EU2 10P.

[yan46]

10 hours ago, V8 Freak said:

Just spotted you can't hear the furl pump any longer.... Check the inertia switch on the bulkhead inside the engine bay hasn't tripped.

You should hear the fuel pump every time the ignition is turned on. (Even if it's not gurgling..)

Fuel pump is fine.When i fitted the NNN ecu and did the purge process i couldnt hear air swishing in the fuel tank. Whereas with my old 'faulty' MSB ecu I couldn't even do the 5 times foot to the pedal purge process(being old) and every time I switched ignition on I could hear the air in the fuel tank. I probably wasn't making myself clear.

[V8 Freak]

The Nanocom fault sounds like a potential issue with the crank sensor?

its quite critical as the engine won’t start without it.

I’m going to do a bit of reading and will be back. 

Catch up I’m PM to arrange to get the Defender map to you. 

Neil

[yan46]

5 hours ago, Ally V8 said:

EU2 or 3 and 2 or 3 track throttle pot is not going to make any difference in just getting the engine to run.If the fuel pump isn't running its unlikely to want to start.(They will start and run without the fuel pump running but it relies on a fully bled and well sealed system) TD5's can be difficult to start even after the purge cycle has been done a few times,especially if the injectors have been out. Best thing to do is tow it up the road,making sure the fuel pump is running,its alot kinder than beating up the already weak starter motor.Also gives full battery voltage to the ecu. 

Fuel pump is fine. I did fit a new one. I also had the injectors out last month to do the washers and seals. I know I bought aftermarket washers and seals (I know not a good idea) and I remember the new washers were very loose when fitted to the injector tips. The I.D of the aftermarket washers seems to be slightly larger than the OEM ones as they are a snug fit I believe. Could it be possible that these aftermarket copper washers are letting air into the system thus preventing the engine from starting? I remember everytime I fitted the new washers to the injector tips and rotated them 180 degrees in order to slide them into the bores, the washers would fall off. So I had to resort to dropping the washers into the bores and then fitting the injectors. 

[yan46]

1 minute ago, V8 Freak said:

The Nanocom fault sounds like a potential issue with tbemcrwnl sensor?

its quite critical as the engine won’t start without it.

I’m going to do a bit of reading and will be back. 

Catch up I’m PM to arrange to get the Defender map to you. 

Neil

I believe I fitted a new crank sensor not so long ago too. I will have to check if wires on the loom haven't broken off but I'm sure I checked and they looked fine. 

Thanks for that Neil.

Regards

Yannick