cefn_bran Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Hello all! Following a snapped cam belt that only mashed 6 pushrods and snapped two rockers , everything is back together, but there is a problem... When turning over the engine (with timing cover off), the cam belt sneaks forward...about half way off the sprockets after just a couple of dozen turns. I inspected the inside of the timing cover and found a groove deep enough to run scalextrix on. Don't really want to cover this up, 'cos the belt is simply going to wear away again (the mashed belt was down to about half its original thickness when the teeth gave way). I strongly suspect that this 1994 300Tdi hasn't had the after market conversion to correct the injector pump misalignment, but how do I tell? Could this be the problem or is there something else? Anyone got any experience of this? Thanks Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 The beginning of this thread shows the kit that is the modification for the 300TDi engine. http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=6943 Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 The beginning of this thread shows the kit that is the modification for the 300TDi engine.http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=6943 Les. Hi Les I got this stuff from Paddocks. Specifically asked for the conversion stuff as I didn't know if it had been done. They supplied me with the bracket and two rollers along with gasket and belt, though no new bolts, so I guess that I could consider that this disco is now converted. Don't see, however, how this bit of kit can correct the injector pump misalignment though. I'm sure I've read somewhere that there is a new timing cover involved along with other stuff, and someone has spoken to me about having to take the injector pump off. So now I'm mightily confused. It would appear that I've got a converted engine that has a belt slipping off. Aaarrggghhh. Help. Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 You are right, the older engines needed a full kit STC4095K including the timing cover and a new bracket for the injector pump plus all the pulleys etc found in the smaller kit for later 1997 engines. The way to tell is that if there is a lip on the crankshaft pulley (to retain the belt - as seen on the crank pulley in the thread Les linked to), you have one of the kits fitted, if the lip is on the tensioner/idler (I forget which one) then you don't... I have no idea how to tell if the timing case has been renewed for the big kit though The belt should not "sneak" forwards at all - the lip on the pulley should stop this? Can you post a pic of what is happening, have you got a mixture of pulleys fitted so that none of them have a lip? in which case it needs sorting out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 I'll try sort some pics out in the morning as I've no digi camera. The crank shaft pulley only has a lip at the back, not the front, so I guess this is an old one and I've got an unmodified engine. Ahh, well! Found this quote whilst crawling "£176 for an extensive modification kit STC4095K including not only the new belt but also a new timing cover, idler pulleys and crankshaft sprocket with belt retaining lips." (No mention of injector pump bracket, though). I'm thinking that this full kit is a main dealer part, as paddocks don't appear to list it on t'interweb, though I'll give them a call on Monday. Meanwhile... Thanks for your helps Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Should have lip on either none or both ends on crank pulley, suspect it has broken off (they are only spot welded and do break) so you need a new crank pulley! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted January 14, 2007 Author Share Posted January 14, 2007 Didn't manage to get hold of a digi camera today. As you say the crankshaft pulley should have either none or two lips, do you think I am safe to assume that replacing the pulley with a two-lipped one (a full mouth?) and forgetting about the new injector pump bracket will suffice, or should I replace the injector pump bracket too? My main fear would be the belt climbing up the lip if there is still loads of pressure for the belt to drift forwards, or the belt grinding away on the front lip. Hmmm Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 well you def want to get a crank pulley with lips on front and rear! it may still chafe the belt but should not "fall off the front" in the way you described, belt wear is a slow process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynall Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 You are not tensioning the belt to much are you? to tight and it will come of the front i know! Lynall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Should have lip on either none or both ends on crank pulley, suspect it has broken off (they are only spot welded and do break) so you need a new crank pulley! That happened to a mate of mine 500kms after fitting the ERR4096K (Genuine LR) kit, with disastrous results. LR refused to pay, of course. We only fit Bearmach kits now, everything is the same except the pulley has a forged lip which can't fall off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Interesting. LR no longer do the kits and so these days we get ours from Bearmach too, but I thought they still had the rubbishy spot welded crank pulley - must check! I know somebody that lost the front lip off the crank pulley too, a week after fitting the kit. Fortunately it was somebody who wouldn't bring their vehicle in to us and did it himself "so it was done properly" so there was a bit of tittering when it went pop after a week and came in to us on the end of a tow rope to have another one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 As long as you have the lip on the crank sprocket - seeing as it's the drive point, then as long as the other sprockets are in line, then the belt should stay straight on them all. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 Just got time to come back to this and noticed the tensioning advice. I've got conflicting advice between 11 and 33 ftlb. Go on - what's the right one? Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 300TDi engine :- Old belt - 11-13Nm = 8-10 lbft New belt - 14-16Nm = 10-12 lbft Timing belt tensioner bolt is 33lbft, perhaps you are getting them mixed-up? Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Hi Guys - got an anomaly! OK - put pin in flywheel through wading plug. Crankshaft woodruff key is 90 degrees advanced though. That doesn't seem right. Any ideas? Which is right - use the flywheel or the crankshaft? If I leave the pin in the wading plug, should I simply return the pump and cam back 1/8 turn to line them up, or should I line up the woodruff key and leave the flywheel 90 deg out? Erm... help. Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 line up the woodruff key. there are several holes in the flywheel so you should find another slot to put the timing pin in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 line up the woodruff key. there are several holes in the flywheel so you should find another slot to put the timing pin in. Hurrah! Thanks for not being out green laning on a Sunday morning. Off to do it now....Will post back in an hour Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Harumph. OK All the timing is sorted - wading plug, injector pump, cam, woodruff key. And I remembered the FIP lead too. And she still won't start. Plenty of fuel getting to injectors. Back to the drawing board, me thinks . Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 There is a 'false' hole in the injector pump about 30 deg out from the other. If you time it like that it will never start. BTDT. As they say in the manual you should put all the pins in before taking the belt off and not turn the engine. I learnt my lesson the first time. The timing only has to be a tiny bit out for the engine not to start. One trick I have learnt is that after tensioning the belt I start the engine - just to see if it fires - without the cover or the pulley fitted. I just let it fire once and stop it instantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 i did the same thing with the false hole on my first attempt. they say the hole is about 10 o'clock but as the false hole is about 9:30 its easy to get wrong. try working back from 12o'clock till the pin slides in. i ended up taking the rad & grill out so i could look through the pulley & thats how i spotted the correct hole. your pin should go in about 1" when you find the correct hole if i remember correctly. its a lot deeper than the false hole anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 Yes, that false hole was the problem. Was doing the job with a mate - he did the injector pump side of things. Once he'd gone and I was well and truly snowed in, I got down to it myself. A 10mm drill bit definitely fits snugly and positively into the injector pump, and slides right through to engage with the hole behind. No play at all. A sure fit. Once I'd corrected this, engine started first time and sounds lovely. Now running much cooler than before, doesn't have a problem starting when hot. Just perfect. Well chuffed. Thanks for all your help, everyone. Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 As they say in the manual you should put all the pins in before taking the belt off and not turn the engine. I learnt my lesson the first time. The timing only has to be a tiny bit out for the engine not to start. Yeah, wish I could have put the pins in before taking the belt off, but this belt was shredded! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 On the 'false hole' bit, for once it is an advantage to have the Haynes manual with photos rather than the LR manual with line drawings. The Haynes manual has a nice photo of the position of the injector pulley when the pin is in. They say one picture is worth a thousand words, for that was how I figured out that the pulley didn't look right and so managed to find the right hole, like the famous high-jumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cefn_bran Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 Finally got round to sorting some pictures of the cam belt saga. Here's the groove worn in the timing cover by the belt creeping forwards: And here's the extend of that creep forwards with a new belt after just a dozen turns: I'm sure I had a picture of the crankshaft sprocket too, but it seems to have vanished. The sprocket only had one lip (on the rear) - the front lip had been prised off by a previous mechanic (?) on the vehicle, thus allowing the cam belt to creep forwards. Clever, eh? Let that be an end to it (I hope). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 as a wild guess the front crank oil seal probably needed replacing before you got the truck & they tried a puller on the lip of the pulley to remove it. it'd make sense till the lip comes off & you realise its held on with a couple of spot welds (think i remember reading that on here, never looked inside a 300 myself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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