The Hydro Assist Thread

[dollythelw]

Sundays good, swing past - theres a box of stuff for you here anyway!

[Steve 90]

having said that even if you show someone the steering working with a dead engine they will still go with bloke down the pubs opinion so whats the point

But we all know the bloke down the pub is always right, The only higher source of facts is "My brother in law who used to work for a ______ dealership......." and "The man from the AA said....."

I went on a "vehicle dynamic control" course earlier this year (just one of many we need to stay ahead of developments in modern cars) and we always spend some time with a representative from one of the European associations (GEA or similar) who talks through and debates some of the technology that's going through development/testing and about to emerge onto the market. One of the things manufactures have READY to go is steer and brake by wire. No mechanical linkage for either!!! He was not too familiar with C&U regs for this country but knew there was some editing on the cards and he also thought that the replacement of the "SVA" with the "IVA" was largely to be sure that the "IVA" fell into line with the edited C&U regs when they appear. I've not read the "SVA" regs so I cant comment but the draft copies of the "IVA" didn't have any requirement for a mechanical linkage.

Planes usually seem to stay in the sky and they dont have mechanical links for anything

[Steve 90]

I don't see why it is any different than a ball joint failing? no backup there either!

Lara

Totally agree. Theres no redundancy if a drag link end breaks! I cant see any problems with full Hydro and want to go that way. The only thing that stops me is the grey area's and the fact people insist on sturring it up and bringing it to the attention of VOSA and SVA officials. If it was all left quiet nobody would be any the wiser.

[Steve 90]

If people are simply after easier steering then either simply fit a higher pressure pump (not flow)

Or one of these http://www.howeperformance.com/accessories-new.htm Steering Speeder/Reducer 1.5:1 Ratio

Lara

When I originally fitted my hydro assist it wasn't for lighter steering, I was looking for a way of protecting the steering box a bit and reducing the chances of a day ending shaft breakage. But now I run boggers at low PSI the assistance is needed. Ive been more than pleased with it 90% of the time but it does need to be faster for the quicker events with timed stages through the trees etc so, as the faster, special stage events are the ones I enjoy its time for a re think.

[alan kemp]

I have a BMW Mini power steering pump which works with an electric motor. Would this, if run in tandem with the normal PAS pump, act as a backup?

As Jez says, you can steer with the pump not turning (or when the engine fails).

I do have a problem with the self centreing. I may try the toe in approach.

I dont really use it on road but we did maybe 100 miles on 3 Peaks this year and it was a nightmare when passing a car coming in the opposite direction on skinny country lanes. The technique is to slow down before you pass then boot it as you pass, this way, the car goes in a straight line instead of the slight wandering effect that I have. Mind you I have replaced all the bushes recently so that may have something to do with it

[dollythelw]

you can run 2 pumps in tandem and that will give instant backup in the event of one pump failing, personally I'll stick with just the one pump though, if you wanted your leccy one Alan you will need a non return in there to stop the leccy pump being munched and only turn it on when you loose the main pump

self centering with an orbitrol is merely a product of castor - its easy

[Steve 90]

self centering with an orbitrol is merely a product of castor - its easy

As it is with any steering system. Castor is what gives you self centering in any steering setup. I get the impression if people are having issues is less to do with hydro and more to do with axle fitment.

[dollythelw]

not always Steve - it also depends on what you use to control the steering

[Steve 90]

not always Steve - it also depends on what you use to control the steering

OK, My point was that the castor is what does the self centering and if that is not right to start with then it does not matter what is hooked to it. B)

My truck's a pig, doesn't self centre because of the lack of castor and it runs a steering box. I'll do something about it when I swap axles!

[will_warne]

A very good answer Simon,

Exactly as I have found from various SVA people, Glad someone also agrees that they can not find any specifics in the rule book, was beginning to think it was my eyes

With regards to a backup though, I don't see why it is any different than a ball joint failing? no backup there either!

As you say though, the return always being different and the lack of self centre may be issues.

Think Tim's answer is the easiest though if people "must" have a steering box!

Lara

Lara, I need to have a chat with an SVA man. As others have said I don't buy the safety argument - loosing a hose is like breaking a TRE or steering arm/rod. If the correct hose is used and routed correctly then you should be fine. The biggest problem may be some catch all clause that allows the tester to use their discretion. As with anything like this if there is nothing set in stone it gives the tester more chance of preventing things they don't like getting through.

I can also testify that Jez's steering works just fine with no pump - its a little heavy but much less than I'd expected. It was certainly no worse than a Series II with no PAS and 33"x12.5" tyres i used to muck about in.....

[filthy boy]

Here we go again!

I spoke with the man from DFT who writes Con and Use regs. Rightly or wrongly, you have to have a SOLID link of material, metal or similar properties (so carbon fibre is okay) from wheel to steering wheel.

You can argue against this all you want and produce evidence of how your solution worked fine but that is the policy / regulation / law.

Problem is that your insurance will be void and you can be prosecuted if you are in an accident. If you want to take the risk doesn't bother me (unless you drive into me! )

If you call DFT, ask for the Con and Use policy section and ask for a definitive answer on steering and they will tell you directly.

Like having an agricultural reg. That only entitles you to go from your farm to your field (or forest). Not on overseas events!!

So build whatever you want but this IS the rule.

Tim

PS Might be quite funny if a bored VOSA man turns up outside an event and starts impounding and crushing vehicles

[Lara]

Tim,

With all due respect,

This is just the total bo11ocks that I have been mentioning!!!

"I spoke with the man who knows" This is utter Bul5hit!

Either it is written or it is not!!!

Metal or similar properties!

Mercury is a metal No?

It's got similar properties to hydraulic oil No?

So it's OK No?

Solid link of "material"

Define "material" cardboard? rubber" sticky-backed plastic?

The rubber of the pipework is solid! I can't see any hydraulic oil swilling around the steering so it seems that we have a solid rubber link, so if I change the pipes to inconel convoluted pipework, is that ok?

Exactly, It isn't written because "it could not possibly be written"

Think about what you are saying! you are certainly bright enough,

Please NO BUL5HIT ........... just "written regulations"

Conditions and Use! explain the infringement of hydraulic steering then, made for this condition and being used as such, LEGAL!!!

I have read that also and no mention of hydraulic or / and a metal bloody link either!

Thank you.

Lara

It's late and I am still office working so need to vent

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

[Mod hat not on - Posters hat on ]

If I could drag this back a bit on topic.

I am still thinking of hydro assist for mine, more to "Protect" the 90s box

when I shove too much force into it with the tyres not wishing to play

and to gain a bit more ease too.

On this basis what are the off the shelf kits like ?

I know of the SFS kit (are they still going / available)

and then theres the new Lllama 4x4 kit ???

What are the good / bad / comments on the above and are there any others

that are "Off the Shelf"

Nige

[filthy boy]

Lara

It is written and the text was quoted to me. It was not "the man who knows", it was the head of the policy team who writes it.

So with all due respect **** off!

If you read what I posted it states you have to have a SOLID (in capitals to avoid you missing it) link. I doubt you will get your mercury to freeze, likewise hydraulic fluid.

Anyway, as I said I don't really give a stuff what people build.

Tim

Tim,

With all due respect,

This is just the total bo11ocks that I have been mentioning!!!

"I spoke with the man who knows" This is utter Bul5hit!

Either it is written or it is not!!!

Metal or similar properties!

Mercury is a metal No?

It's got similar properties to hydraulic oil No?

So it's OK No?

Solid link of "material"

Define "material" cardboard? rubber" sticky-backed plastic?

The rubber of the pipework is solid! I can't see any hydraulic oil swilling around the steering so it seems that we have a solid rubber link, so if I change the pipes to inconel convoluted pipework, is that ok?

Exactly, It isn't written because "it could not possibly be written"

Think about what you are saying! you are certainly bright enough,

Please NO BUL5HIT ........... just "written regulations"

Conditions and Use! explain the infringement of hydraulic steering then, made for this condition and being used as such, LEGAL!!!

I have read that also and no mention of hydraulic or / and a metal bloody link either!

Thank you.

Lara

It's late and I am still office working so need to vent

[Lara]

Tim,

Read what I said,

SHOW US THE PRINTED WORDS

The C&U nor the SVA paperwork has a caption that reads "ask Tim's mate" Whoever he may be,

You can only apply rules that are WRITTEN!

Solid! As I said,

We have a solid link of rubber, We could change that to SOLID link of Inconel, but YOU sprouted "METAL OR SIMILAR PROPERTIES" I answered "similar to Mercury?" Similar to what metal would you like this link to be? Or more accurately What does your mate have ideas about in his head?

WE NEED FACTS and ONLY FACTS! WITH PROOF! or it's still only "HEAR SAY" from whatever source!

In my opinion and after reading SVA and C&U paperwork several times, Full Hydraulic or anything else that is correctly designed and "WELL ENGINEERED" will be fine,

As long as it

1. Self centres,

2. Collapses in case of an accident, in an acceptable way,

3. Is well engineered and executed.

4. Works as well as the standard for this type vehicle.

Unless someone shows me the "actual section" in the rule book that states otherwise!

Lara.

[Lara]

[Mod hat not on - Posters hat on ]

If I could drag this back a bit on topic.

I am still thinking of hydro assist for mine, more to "Protect" the 90s box

when I shove too much force into it with the tyres not wishing to play

and to gain a bit more ease too.

On this basis what are the off the shelf kits like ?

I know of the SFS kit (are they still going / available)

and then theres the new Lllama 4x4 kit ???

What are the good / bad / comments on the above and are there any others

that are "Off the Shelf"

Nige

Nige,

There used to be a guy who sold complete bolt on conversions for series vehicles, not sure of the company name but will try to find it for you.

Used to advertise in LRE etc.

http://www.allabout4x4.com/landroverseriespowersteering.html

Found it,

Should work well as an aid!

Lara

[filthy boy]

He is not my mate, never met him. Just the man in that area at DfT.

But what's the point.

[will_warne]

Right, having looked at the SVA manual again last night Lara is spot on. However, I need to have a look at the C&U regsto see if there's any room for interpretation.

Whatever happens the rule will be written......

[Lara]

He is not my mate, never met him. Just the man in that area at DfT.

But what's the point.

The point is Tim,

that without Written regulations and "quoted sections and paragraphs" what you were saying was totally meaningless and just "another" hear say interpretation.

Not Fact! and Not supported by any rules or documents. Just you quoting a supposed (not me doubting you, I believe you, just that it is also unsubstantiated) phone call, apparently with someone at DfT, (big title maybe but then he should be able to qoute "section and paragraph?) he obviously didn't?

Bull5hit may be a too harsh word and it was not meant to offend you, just to get the message across that any info is worthless if not substantiated. And no one has done so, so far.

That is why the whole SVA thing is blown out of all proportion, it is not hard as you know,

All this misinformation though makes it hard for people who do not feel able to find out and interpret the rule book for themselves, and often get scared off before they start.

Many people get scared of doing conversions just like HfH intends to do, just because some miss-informed forum member says "you can't do that" and mentions SVA

This needs to stop. I am not saying that you are miss-informed or not trying to help, just that these subjects need hard FACTS and questions need answering with Proof.

You can not just say "I was told by an man who knows" if we all believed every time we heard this then we would all be walking by now! And your car wouldn't exist either

Lara.

[Timmy511]

I dont have a great deal in the way of dimensions handy at the minute but here's a couple of pic's.

This does seem to work brilliantly and is very quick and easy to do.

Cheers.

Steve.

could someone just briefly explain or give me a link to read to under stand how you control the ram using the steering wheel? apart from ram, hoses and pump what other components are needed?

cheers, Tim.

[TD5 power]

hi

this link should give an idea of how it works pirate 4x4 hydrostatic steering

All modern construction and ag equipment tractors etc use this system so unless there is a max speed you can go without having a mechanical link i don't see why it cant be used on other vehicles.

The steering wheel position can move in relation to the wheels which may cause trouble. This happens if you only just turn the wheel it will open the control valve and send a small amount of oil to the ram turning the wheels but the steering wheel will return to the same place.

matt

[Lara]

Any progress with ideas Nige?

Lara

[plasticbadger]

If you want to go full hydraulic, then boat systems are pretty appilcable.

Hypromarine in Lymington, Hampshire, will supply you a complete kit of parts to include helm unit (the pump the fits on the dash board!) pipe work, presure relief valve, steering cylinder, diagrams to plumb into exist engine power steering pump, etc. All for about £600.

You can specify cylinder stoke, number of turns lock to lock etc. and the systems provide good feed back feel on the boats, so in theory should self centre.

I'm going to start working on my own Hydro assist system, hopefully based around Volvo marine steering parts that we have plenty of 'lying' around here at work, so I'll keep everybody up to date - that'll be one system for me, one for Marek!

[will_warne]

The point is Tim,

that without Written regulations and "quoted sections and paragraphs" what you were saying was totally meaningless and just "another" hear say interpretation.

Not Fact! and Not supported by any rules or documents. Just you quoting a supposed (not me doubting you, I believe you, just that it is also unsubstantiated) phone call, apparently with someone at DfT, (big title maybe but then he should be able to qoute "section and paragraph?) he obviously didn't?

Bull5hit may be a too harsh word and it was not meant to offend you, just to get the message across that any info is worthless if not substantiated. And no one has done so, so far.

That is why the whole SVA thing is blown out of all proportion, it is not hard as you know,

All this misinformation though makes it hard for people who do not feel able to find out and interpret the rule book for themselves, and often get scared off before they start.

Many people get scared of doing conversions just like HfH intends to do, just because some miss-informed forum member says "you can't do that" and mentions SVA

This needs to stop. I am not saying that you are miss-informed or not trying to help, just that these subjects need hard FACTS and questions need answering with Proof.

You can not just say "I was told by an man who knows" if we all believed every time we heard this then we would all be walking by now! And your car wouldn't exist either

Lara.

Lara, last night I started doing some digging through legislation to try and find an answer. Basically, most references to steering talk about ensuring it's maintained to a sufficient standard. The ONLY information I have found about steering design is in relation to ensuring it is designed so as to limit the damage to the driver in an accident (as you see in the protective steering sections in the SVA manual). I think there may be a relevant schedule that isn't included in the online resources that will talk more about requirements for the design. However, none of the sections or regulations stating the steering must comply with the C&U regs point you to this. I only found a schedule that was missing because it was, apparently, too complex to put online. I will try and get a chance in the next week to take a look at the paper version of Halsbury's Laws as this shouldn't omit it. There is still more digging to do, though, as I didn't find any statute or SI relating to car SVA tests (only bike SVA and type approval). I looked but they didn't seem to exist which doesn't seem right.....

Even if I do some more work and still find nothing I'd want to talk to someone to make sure I hadn't missed anything. However, as Lara says, if they can't point me to a section that sets out the design requirements in stone then I can't see they can argue against full hydro steering. If it does as required in the SVA and works when the engine isn't running and self centres then I can't see that a piece of legislation that allows tester to use their discretion would be sufficient - they would have to have some reason to object.

[Lara]

Thanks Will,

I think the whole world would be very relieved to have some Written Clarification on this, which ever way it goes!

It may just redeem all of your past sins

Though probably not

Lara