CYmon Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Hi, I read with interest the TD5 Spain thread of last year about a coughing TD5 but as the solution was to change the ECU, it didn't really help me. My Landy: "1999 Disco II, XA year, 130,000km + a 2003 engine, 30,000km" bought from a non LR Landy specialist in 2005. I bought an AutoLogic remaped ECU off eBay and had it fitted by LR Dealer (so I guess they did the injector coding). No problems at all over the past three years (now at 206,000 km), then, suddenly.... My problem: When accelerating under load (ie up a hill) the car SOMETIMES coughs between the 2,200 and higher rev ranges. Sometimes I can rev right up to 4,000 rpm in 2nd, 3rd and 4th no problem. Sometimes I cant get past 3000rpm, but no coughing. The problem seems to come and go. It seams worse on damp days...weird. When I cant get past 3000rpm, I can stop... wait a mo for the engine to cool down, turn off, wait 15 secs, restart and the TD5 is back to full power - for a while. What have I done about it so far...? I stopped off at a non LR but LR specialist (ETT Paris) who changed the MAF and one of the Turbo Pressure sensors. He still found the car to be lacking in power but he found it to only cough over 3000 rpm. He said there were 10 reported T4 errors, but "forgot to note them down." When I got home, I found the Gas Recirculation hose was loose - so I fixed it back into its hole in the post-MAF part of the inlet before the turbo. I took took the car for a spin in nice hot weather and all seemed well Today its raining and horrible and the coughing at 2200 is back. Stop, Start: Gone, Rev up to 3500 on flat ground, all ok. Tried to climb a small hill... Cough cough... I've the RAVE NAS documents for a v8 but not TD5 info - now that HAYNES have published one its just been ordered and am impatiently awaiting the book. I'm thinking of changing the other sensors around the turbo, before my next trip to the LR (or not) dealers... 400€ just to change the MAF and one sensor hurts ! As it is, I can drive at 2000 rpm and lower and it will creap up to 2500 / 3000 slowly (when it does cough) but the problem needs fixing ! All help greatly appriciated... cheers Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Welcome Fuel pump is on the way out would be my guess, at high demand (i.e. under load lots of revs) the pressure drops away and you lose power/misfire. It will not necessarily show up as a fault on T4 as the Td5 ECU has no fuel pressure sensing. The only 100% ways to check would be either fit a fuel pressure gauge in place of the temp sensor on the fuel system and test drive it, or fit a new pump and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 sounds like a fuel starvation problem, as bogmonster says it's probably the fuel pump, do they have a lift pump on them modern engines? If so it sounds like the same symptoms as a worn lift pump on a 300tdi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 It has an electric fuel pump in the tank. There is no lift pump in the engine bay nor is there a fuel filter in the engine bay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYmon Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 Hi guys, Thanks for the info (and the welcome)... yes, I originally wondered if it was the Pump... I've read lots of comments about them being almost disposable items worth keeping in stock ! The guy at ETT in Paris said that the problem was not with the fuel supply, but with the air intake - after he changed the MAF things were much better but he wasnt happy. "There is still something wrong," he added and changed the outlet manifold pressure sensor. Problem is being here in France, although my folks live 30 miles from Paddock, delivery times here are quite slow, and I have to be sure that I have ALL the bits I need before starting open tank surgery... I'd prefer to order more than I need (always sell on to others here in France!) than find Im missing one little 49p item. So... what do I need...? Pump Seal what else? I saw there was a Test/refit the TD5 Fuel pump article somewhere and I've found the missing RAVE files from your site (anyone need the NAS V8 Specs...?). The Haynes manual should arrive sometime this week too. I read that there is a special tool to extract the pump...special or easy to make ? (LRT-19-009) Before I jump... can any of the sensors/other bits cause this...? From RAVE --> Fuel Temp error --> Driveability concern. Turbo wastegate modulator? many thanks, Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally V8 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 When you say "coughing" do you mean surging,like "kangaroo petrol" ? Reason I ask is that the Td5's turbo will be at full boost at 2100-2200rpm under full load.What really needs doing is to stick Testbook on it and drive up the road,watching the boost pressure.If it goes over 225KPA then the ecu will cut fuelling to prevent engine damage.As the boost quickly drops the ecu will give the fuel back and it will overboost again.A sticking wastegate on the turbo will cause this,check by removing the operating rod and making sure the arm on the turbo is nice and free to move - to the point of being sloppy.WD40 aqnd pliers is about all you can do to free them. I also saw one case where the turbo was clamped up slightly out of line which meant the rod was pulling on the arm at an angle - making it stick,even though the arm was free to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYmon Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 When you say "coughing" do you mean surging,like "kangaroo petrol" ? Reason I ask is that the Td5's turbo will be at full boost at 2100-2200rpm under full load.What really needs doing is to stick Testbook on it and drive up the road,watching the boost pressure.If it goes over 225KPA then the ecu will cut fuelling to prevent engine damage.As the boost quickly drops the ecu will give the fuel back and it will overboost again.A sticking wastegate on the turbo will cause this,check by removing the operating rod and making sure the arm on the turbo is nice and free to move - to the point of being sloppy.WD40 aqnd pliers is about all you can do to free them.I also saw one case where the turbo was clamped up slightly out of line which meant the rod was pulling on the arm at an angle - making it stick,even though the arm was free to move. Ahh... I was thinking of something along these lines...? Its raining donkies and elephants at the moment, but as soon as they go back to where they belong I'll have a check. Page 18-1-34 of Rave shows th eoperation details and their symptoms are similar to what I have (smoke, lack of power). Its interesting that MIL doesn't come on for any of these errors (fuel pump, TBWasteMod) Thanks Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porny Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Most likely causes.... The turbo wastegate modulator - only fitted to Td5 Discoverys (not Defenders) ... the little valve that is bolted to the side of the Td5/casting for the air con mount etc... and is piped into the turbo actuator. These aren't very expensive (about £15 I think).... and do have a habit of playing up. You could try bypassing it, and running the actuator as per a Defender. Oil in the injector loom - check the red plug at the ECU end (with the ignition off, unplug it and check for oil content) - about £40. Fuel Pump as mentioned. Seized wastegate on the turbo... although this is more likely to make the problem happen all the time, and not just occasionally. Turbo pressure sensor... I take as the MAP sensor - so the sensor on the inlet manifold... if this has been changed for a new one, then should be ok... but if not give it a clean. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYmon Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 Most likely causes....The turbo wastegate modulator - only fitted to Td5 Discoverys (not Defenders) ... the little valve that is bolted to the side of the Td5/casting for the air con mount etc... and is piped into the turbo actuator. These aren't very expensive (about £15 I think).... and do have a habit of playing up. You could try bypassing it, and running the actuator as per a Defender. Oil in the injector loom - check the red plug at the ECU end (with the ignition off, unplug it and check for oil content) - about £40. Fuel Pump as mentioned. Seized wastegate on the turbo... although this is more likely to make the problem happen all the time, and not just occasionally. Turbo pressure sensor... I take as the MAP sensor - so the sensor on the inlet manifold... if this has been changed for a new one, then should be ok... but if not give it a clean. Ian Hi Ian, You could try bypassing [the turbo wastegate modulator], as per Defender... How...? Connect the pipe from the Inlet manif directly to the turbo actuator..? Hence hi vaccumb opens the waste gate... That right ? Oil in injector loom ... Yes, well... a very light film, enough to smear on my finger, but nothing worth opening an oil platform for. I took the other off too. Bone dry. So I guess a new loom is looming. Wastegate ... As per a previous post (thanks) can I just unbolt the actuator and see if there is free movement...(this avoids having to remove the heat shield)...? Yes, the sensor (in french "capteur de pression de collecteur") and MAF were changed. Thanks Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYmon Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 Hi, Well I cant get the bolt behind the heat shield to budge so I removed the bolts on the actuator. It wont come off its mountings (ie towards the raidiator) because the linkage will not budge. So I've removed the slip ring, but still cant get the linkage off of the wastegate lever... I never force anything together/appart - always a bad idea in my book. Is the wastegate "sprung" or should it move freely ? Can I spray WD40 onto the link / wastegate lever (I also have a product called PLUSGAS that helps with these things. Cant remeber if its UK or Fr). Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYmon Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 Enough for today...tools away... The attached photo shows the wiring loom as it passes the coolant sensor over the A/C compressor. I dont know if its standard procedure to pass the cables UNDER the coolant hose but this one did (Rave - 86-7-15 shows it going over). Right over the ERG pipe; I'll bet it was touching it... and there is one bare wire. It looks brown, but then they all did until I cleaned them up a bit. This wire part of the Injector loom change I guess... there seems to be a lot of other pieces too (starter - alternator - battery holder). I took the WG Solenoid out, cleaned it, checked its resistance --> 27 ohms. Free passage between inlet manifold (top) and Wastegate (side). Bottom goes to the turbo outpipe. I figured the Waste gate lever should be pushed, and it is free to move. I drive up to Paris tomorrow morning, early, so I thing I'll go for a short drive first... Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CYmon Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 It was no better...coughs from 2200 upwards, then went into "limp home mode"...no turbo, no coughing. Last question for now... how much force should I need to make the arm on the Wastegate actuator move...? I had to push quite hard to get it to move... does the "Turbo side" have that much force...? Basically, I could not just hold the rod in my fingers and move it, nor could I do so with closed fist an pliers... I had to put a spanner behind the nut and push from the front of the car..when it moved, it moved freely. I'll be back here in a week or so... Cheers Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil37 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 It was no better...coughs from 2200 upwards, then went into "limp home mode"...no turbo, no coughing. Last question for now... how much force should I need to make the arm on the Wastegate actuator move...? I had to push quite hard to get it to move... does the "Turbo side" have that much force...? Basically, I could not just hold the rod in my fingers and move it, nor could I do so with closed fist an pliers... I had to put a spanner behind the nut and push from the front of the car..when it moved, it moved freely. I'll be back here in a week or so... Cheers Simon Simon did you ever get to the cause of your problem. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanS Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 5 years ago he said he'd be back in a week or so..... Hasn't been back since 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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