chrism Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Right chaps, its coming to the time where i fancy myself a decent bender and i can throw my machine mart thing in the scrap! I have had a quote from tubela for a model 3, they also gave me prices for the 3 sets of dies that i would commonly use. The bender itself is a good price i think. i couldnt make one for that! So im happy to pay up £300 for that. Thats without hydraulics but with degree ring. I would add the hydraulics myself similar to this thread... http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopi...1&hl=bender Now the formers themselves really do put me off buying one, so im wondering of other options that maybe out there. I would be able to machine them up myself but im wondering how much is actually involved with them. The hardest part i should imagine will be finding big enough lumps of material! They look simple enough but im guessing theyre not just plain en8 with a couple of holes bobbed into them. Would anyone be able to enlighten me on just how complicated these dies are. has anyone had a go at this in the past? The other option is to look at importing the bender and dies in. The $ vs £ isnt so great at the mo, but im wondering whether i could still save myself any money. The prices tubela quote me in £ are the same as what they are advertised on jd2 website in $ Any help or advice would be appreciated here as i dont fancy spending £1200+ for a bender and 3 sets of dies. Apologies if anyone finds this thread a bit confusing, im half confused myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Personally I'd say it was the other way round - the dies are the hard bit! Personally I don't think the JD2 model 3 (or the dies) is expensive for what they are and the quality of bends they give. The only other thing you need is one of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 The only other thing you need is one of these. He's right - they're great until you roll a welder over them... Anyway. I only know of 2 ways to make the dies. I in a lathe with a tool holder mounted in a manually rotatable device on the tool post, set so that the swing of the tool tip describes an arc which matches the circumference of the material to be bent. The second way is to mill out the die using a cutter which is the size of the material to be bent - for this you'll need to set the mill up so you can feed the billet into the tool by rotating it about its centre. Hope that makes sense. You don't really need three tube sizes in a custom chassis, just live with one or two for now? Buy a JD2 and build up slowly? If you're really stuck on finding material, bung me a PM. My local scrappy just sold me a 1m square 3" plate and about 10 foot of 7" solid round stock. they've got plenty of stuff if you need it. Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 Cheers for the replies chaps Realistically i do need 3 as need one for 50mm cds for chassis/spaceframe for my next and current truck build, dies for 38mm cds for a little bike engined buggy thats currently in the design stages and 48mm dies for general stuff where i can get away with using cheap ERW Saying that, i could by a half decent amount of 50mm cds for £350! Unless i could get away with bending the 48mm with the 50mm dies, whats a coulple of mm between friends! That sounds like a good plan going to the scrappy for odd bits What i was wondering is if they are as simple as just machining the die out, i agree that fairly simple by using a rotating tool set to the radius in the lathe toolpost. Probably end up in the miller though as it may not fit inmy lathe What i was thinking is that the diameter of the die is going to be critical (ie the measurement which would determine the bend radius) so that when the die and the opposite die and former are fitted they have the right distance detween them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Personally I think you can do with less than 3 dies too. I started thinking about getting several dies of different CLR just for the right 'look' on the frame but, when it came to it, I decided I'd rather save the extra cash. Also, 2 builds at once is a little greedy How about only getting 2 dies and bending ERW on the Machine Mart cheepo bender? It should give a reasonable result especially with some tweaking to the dies (as they seem to be the real issue with a lot of cheap benders) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 That is a thought that has passed through my mind to be honest and a pretty sensible one at that! Im guessing that its going to be difficult to improve the mm type just on their principle, ie a push type bender. I cant see how the formers can be improved really. I think they would benefit from improved 'blocks' (the bits you push the tube against). New ones of those could easily mbe made to suit the specific tube sizes instead of being universal, but all that will do is help prevent the tube denting. I tend to solve that with a couple of pieces of plywood. I do agree with you though, 2 builds is greedy, as is just filling the rack up for the 'look'!!! That would be a very expensive hobby Anybody got any thoughts on whether it maybe cheaper to import at the moment? Not something i have ever done before so im not sure on the duties etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Some 'push type' benders come with correctly profiled 'blocks' - as you call them - for various tube sizes - in fact I think tubelas own ones do nowadays? They tend to have several profiles cut into each and you rotate it to suit the tube / pipe you're bending. They are fundamentally worse at creating bends while not ovalising the tube than draw-type benders (like te JD squared). But often this is exacerbated because people use pipe bending dies on steel tube instead of pipe. There is a magic ratio of 'agreed acceptability' for tube ovality in roll cages. I think its around 90%, but its all given in the manuals etc. This can be achieved with a compression bender if the correct former is used. To import tools from the States, in my experience, you'\re normally talking twice the 'label cost' of the tool once its landed here, vat / duty etc etc. Let alone getting it to your door. Of course this assumes a linear ratio of tool weight to tool cost, but its a good guide. Cheers, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I did consider importing but, to be honest, the figures didn't really stack up. Given Tubela are basically charging £ for $ what you'd pay in the US I think it's quite good value at the moment. I guess that's just down to the scale they're operating on: bringing in a container load at a time will be much cheaper for shipping. As you say, the push type benders are more limited but with the right die you can get good results. IIRC Hybrid_from_Hell made the cage for his car when it was hard top using a push type bender. Also, if you're not planning anything done with ERW to be that structural then a little deformation would not be such an issue. I think you're also right about the blocks - I know of one forumer (Si White) who got good results on a cheap bender by improving them. Again, this was nothing safety critical (just some tree bars on the end of his cage) but the results were surprisingly good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbymogs Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 my cage was done with a elcheapo bender and its come out pretty good me thinks (shame its not that straight anymore) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 If you have access to a lathe large enough to swing a lump of steel required to make dies then you can get exelant results from a push bender, i make my own dies for whatever i need some pics here of a 7" clr die measures 14 3/8 dia for 3" pipe i make them a snug fit and allow 3/16 of flat plus the half dia to help stop deforming This one was made on the handles due to its size it could'nt be done in the cnc but very good results can be had, i faced the blank up to size and used a sharp V tool to rough it out and then a centralised button tool to finish turn So no fancy tooling used and anyone with decent lathe can do this, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 I will probably knock up some new 'blocks' for my push bender to start with and see what difference it makes, its still never going to give me accurate repeatable bends though! Nobby, thats a tidy cage, good effort! my push bender has done some ok stuff, but when it comes to repeatability and going beyond 90deg then its not great. Carl, thats the stuff i have been looking for, spot on! I have a gap bed lathe so i may just squeeze something that size in! What grade of steel do you use for the dies? I presume you just cut that in half and use 180deg of it? Does that give good bends when you go past 90deg I have just rebuilt a bender at home, which may have started life as tubela push bender or similar. It runs off a big power pack and is a very very heavy duty version of the machine mart. Unfortunatley the dies are still carp as are the 'blocks'. I may have a go at making new dies and blocks for this, it could give good results for not a great deal of wonga! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy511 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 If you have access to a lathe large enough to swing a lump of steel required to make dies then you can get exelant results from a push bender, i make my own dies for whatever i need some pics here of a 7" clr die measures 14 3/8 dia for 3" pipe i make them a snug fit and allow 3/16 of flat plus the half dia to help stop deforming This one was made on the handles due to its size it could'nt be done in the cnc but very good results can be had, i faced the blank up to size and used a sharp V tool to rough it out and then a centralised button tool to finish turn So no fancy tooling used and anyone with decent lathe can do this, Carl. Carl do you make rollers to the same profile as the die or is it not important? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbymogs Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I will probably knock up some new 'blocks' for my push bender to start with and see what difference it makes, its still never going to give me accurate repeatable bends though! Nobby, thats a tidy cage, good effort! my push bender has done some ok stuff, but when it comes to repeatability and going beyond 90deg then its not great. i just wish it was all my own work............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Chrism, my lathe is a harrison M450 so has a 450mm swing, its more about being able to get the toolpost back far enough to turn the out side than being able to grip it, to find out just wind topslide back as far as you can and with a tool in measure from end of tool to centre this will tell you what your limit is, the steel is flame cut from plate, i use a cnc profiler to cut any size and thickness, The grade is 50B, Mild steel would be fine for dies, cut them into quaters. Timmy, I have made counter dies for the larger stuff, All i do is bore a square lump to the pipe size and split it down its lengh then weld a tube on the back to take the pin, you may need to make or modify the 'Y' to get the dies/counter dies to work properly, The one i have fror smaler stuff is a rectagular block with a radious on one end with a 'universal' type profile, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 What was the outcome of this, have you decided to buy or make your own, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 I took your advice Carl and bored out a lump of 70x70 square to 48.5mm and cut it in half. I then glued a tube i turned to the back of the blocks. All in all they look very nice and will shortly be getting a good testing session! As it isnt costing much and im not sure now on what tube bending i will be doing in the future im going to stick with this and see what results i can get. I will make myself a former similar to your pictures above soon when i can find a lump big enough to turn down. Anyone know of an apropriate radius to make the former to get good 90deg bends in 48mm blueband? If i get significantly better results on the blueband i will probably end up making more dies to suit CDS for cages etc. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 If i get significantly better results on the blueband i will probably end up making more dies to suit CDS for cages etc. Be carefull with a push bender and cds as it may well not work on thinner gauge, you can use your ram from your push bender and make a rota press, it uses rotery dies and works like a draw bender, mine does up to 2" od about 3.5 mm wall, it does very nice bends and is easy to make, will take some pics and post them up tomorow, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbadger Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Anyone know of an apropriate radius to make the former to get good 90deg bends in 48mm blueband? Corus quote 2D radius for red band and 3D radius for blue band. for your 48mm OD blue band that makes for a 144mm rad. I can see from the above that you know what you're doing, but remember the galvanised blue band wont bend so well due the effect of the heating of the galvanising process. I'm going to try to my push bender on some 50.2mm x 2.8mm wall DOM I've got lying around and see how it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Thanks plastic badger, piece of 300mm round will do me nicely then! Im not planning on bending any galv to be honest, i buy all my steel in black. I have a hand rail to make a some point which would be nice in galv but its just as easy to get the spray gub out when there is a pile of things to paint! Carl, sounds a bit like a jd2 if your pulling the tube around the die? Will be interesting to see the pics Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Carl, sounds a bit like a jd2 if your pulling the tube around the die? Will be interesting to see the pics Some pics of rota press Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clbarclay Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Where did you get an excentric die from? It doesn't look like its modified to be excentric I have seen benders like that before, but not seen those dies for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Where did you get an excentric die from?It doesn't look like its modified to be excentric I have seen benders like that before, but not seen those dies for sale. Its all made by staffa, no mods to it at all, I bought it from ebay as a full kit, I have not seen this type before but it is listed in the manual as a optional extra, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clbarclay Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Thanks Let me know if you need any more info on it, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clbarclay Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 For the time being its just a case of watching and waiting to see if anything afford able comes along, as it will be a while yet before need a bender or have access again to machine tools big enough to make one. All the same thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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