Homebrew 8274 twinmotor and a 200A alternator

[will4x4]

looking forward to see how this turns out. plus if the 8274 casting will actually hold out with all the power and twist you will have. good work!

[white90]

Nice work

but I think the GP version is Beefed up for good reason.

Still no harm in trying

[Soren Frimodt]

Nice work

but I think the GP version is Beefed up for good reason.

Still no harm in trying

Yes of course there is a good reason.

But the way I see it their problem could be because the front motor is just hanging off the adaptor that is bolted to the housing. I could imagine this could be a problem. But because we have a support at the rearmost of the engine, this will not be an issue.

But I suppose next time we'll just machine a complete housing if it turns out to be a problem. Again as this is only for our own use, it doesn't matter that much if there's errors to be corrected. We couldn't do everything ourselves though, today we just supported Gigglepin by buying one of there uprated mainshafts

really looks nice I must say, nice piece of craftsmanship. Now we just have to see if it can be broken

[simonr]

What comes above a gold star? Anyway - you get one of those too!

Si

[Soren Frimodt]

Thank you Simon much to kind. All we need now is to save up some money for yet a couple of motors. But we are having a hard time finding someone to make the gears for us to gear up the winch (Well for the kind of money we are prepared to spend that is) And it really is a shame cos we will have no use of all this power unless we can gear it up somehow. But I would wonder if time wouldn't present a solution of some sorts

[Timmy511]

could you not make a spacer plate for the top housing to lift it up, then increase the number of teeth on the drive gear by one or two to increase the gearing, as im guessing those two gears would be cheapest to produce by:

turning a gear blank yourself,

get someone to cut it

then get the splines broached or shaped.

[Soren Frimodt]

Exactly what we are planing to do Timmy But we are on the look for someone to do it at a proper price

[white90]

Try Carl Hurst on here

[Timmy511]

Exactly what we are planing to do Timmy But we are on the look for someone to do it at a proper price

your 3 years too late!

if id still been at reliance gear company id have done it for you if we'd had the hobs and right shaping cutters.

it seems so long since i was gear cutting. ah good times.

The spacer plate cant be difficult if you have CNC capabities, if i were you id leave it tall, then plastigauge the gear mesh and surface grind your spacer plate to get the mesh cock on.

You could make the gears and spline production easier by reverting back to old 8274 type gear with a woodruff key and grind a key way into the motor shaft. then broach the key way into the gears.

[Soren Frimodt]

I'm not sure I understand your last line there mate

We are not planning on gearing it at the motors, that simply isn't possible if we want to have two motors side by side. The distance would be to great to be able have both motors there. Now try to bare with me on this, I only know the english I was taught in school: The intermediate gear that the motors connect to via their gears (the one you can disengage) is splined over another gear which is the the same spline all the way through. This connects to a larger gear in the lower housing. This gear is the one we want to change so that it would have two different sized splines. One that the intermediate gear still fits on, and one that is larger so that we will have to space up the tophousing and get a taller gearing. Was that understandable?

Otherwise great idea regarding the plastigauge haven't thought of that, but I then think we would make it a bit to thin instead and make the correct thickness gasket to shim it. exactly the same way you get the correct squish out of a dirtbike engine

[Timmy511]

I'm not sure I understand your last line there mate

We are not planning on gearing it at the motors, that simply isn't possible if we want to have two motors side by side. The distance would be to great to be able have both motors there. Now try to bare with me on this, I only know the english I was taught in school: The intermediate gear that the motors connect to via their gears (the one you can disengage) is splined over another gear which is the the same spline all the way through. This connects to a larger gear in the lower housing. This gear is the one we want to change so that it would have two different sized splines. One that the intermediate gear still fits on, and one that is larger so that we will have to space up the tophousing and get a taller gearing. Was that understandable?

Otherwise great idea regarding the plastigauge haven't thought of that, but I then think we would make it a bit to thin instead and make the correct thickness gasket to shim it. exactly the same way you get the correct squish out of a dirtbike engine

Sorry, ive looked at the pictures and seen the problem with changing the gearing with the motor gears, no clearence for the second motor drive gear, DOH! you dont need to space the motors further apart (i dont think), youll have the same effect by lifting the top housing with a plate inbetween the top housing and the lower housing.

id say yeah go for the big driven gear in lower housing, but for an increase in speed youd have to reduce the number of teeth on the driven gear, which would then mean you have to drop the top housing not lift it. This is if ive understood your plan.

The only two ways i can see this being done relatively easily if you have the machines are:

1: Open up the top housing by cutting material away from around the second motors drive gears, and weld in plate to close it back up again, then machine a spacer for the top housing and produce two new drive gears for the motors.

2: modify the main shaft/make your own one with a bigger gear on the end and a smaller gear on the drum.

or ring Gigglepin, and see if they can supply you with any of the parts to reduce the work load.

The shim/gasket idea is fine, imo itll just be messy if you have to stack it with more than one but on another note itll allow for adjustment in the future.

[Soren Frimodt]

Thank you for your input Timmy, and you are right it isn't absolutely necessary to space the the two motors even more apart, we could just have a smaller gear made up in the middle this way the motors would sit at the same spot, and so would the center gear. But again this still leaves us with clearance issues at the motors. But I'm not sure you completely understand how it looks on the inside, the way we are planning to do it will only require one gear to be made larger and that is not in the lowerhousing, the large gear in the lowerhousing connects to a gear in the upper housing, and it is this I would make larger, hence moving the tophousing upwards. Nothing explains better than some pictures though. These are the gears I'm on about, and the smaller one, is the one I want made larger:

[Timmy511]

Ahhhhh see what you saying now, yes i agree deffinatly the way to go.

is that one solid gear or is it a gear on a splined shaft as you were talking about earlier?

if its on a splined shaft then its easy peasy and only one gear to be made along with a spacer plate.

cant wait to see it done!

[Eyby]

Thank you for your input Timmy, and you are right it isn't absolutely necessary to space the the two motors even more apart, we could just have a smaller gear made up in the middle this way the motors would sit at the same spot, and so would the center gear. But again this still leaves us with clearance issues at the motors. But I'm not sure you completely understand how it looks on the inside, the way we are planning to do it will only require one gear to be made larger and that is not in the lowerhousing, the large gear in the lowerhousing connects to a gear in the upper housing, and it is this I would make larger, hence moving the tophousing upwards. Nothing explains better than some pictures though. These are the gears I'm on about, and the smaller one, is the one I want made larger:

Hi there Soren I have dug up this thread and am wondering how you went with regearing the winch? did you do it and what were the results?

[simonr]

If any of you are interested in joining two motors together end-to-end but are wondering how to connect the output of the rear motor to the back of the front, the answer is to use a collet chuck:

I used an off the shelf collet like the one on the left and machined my own holder for it. You tighten a collar which pushes the collet in to a tapered hole, tightening it on the shaft of the rear of the other motor. It means that you do not need to cut a keyway or anything on the motor and the two shafts are very accurately alligned so they can share a single bearing.

The collet will grip much more strongly than the stall torque of a winch motor (which is 30 to 40 Nm).

Si

[tuf045]

If any of you are interested in joining two motors together end-to-end but are wondering how to connect the output of the rear motor to the back of the front, the answer is to use a collet chuck:

I used an off the shelf collet like the one on the left and machined my own holder for it. You tighten a collar which pushes the collet in to a tapered hole, tightening it on the shaft of the rear of the other motor. It means that you do not need to cut a keyway or anything on the motor and the two shafts are very accurately alligned so they can share a single bearing.

The collet will grip much more strongly than the stall torque of a winch motor (which is 30 to 40 Nm).

Si

sounds like a very good idea, but i can not follow how it will clamp to two shafts can understand it clamping to 1 shaft. in saying that i am not very familiar with collet chucks, have you got any pics of your setup?

[Soren Frimodt]

Didn't even notice my old thread had been resurrected

Re: gearing solution, well there really isn't much too it nowadays when you can just buy it off the shelf from GP.

We wouldn't be able to make it for much less when it's not a large batch.

I kinda like your idea Si, but I'm afraid it'll be too long? We made this as short as we thought possible without compromising strength.

And I suppose your thinking of chucking the end of each motor into they're own end of the collet chuck until they meet in the middle? Or did you machine something with the internal splines allowing it to fit over the rear motor?

This weekend he actually just sold the twinmotor tophousing where they sit next to each other. This was partly to finance his next project where he will be making a completely new tophousing more like the GP one. Although he still runs the first twinmotor setup we made, without any troubles whatsoever. I think it's mostly for sports he's making this new one. All we are left to decide is whether to run GP tophousing gears or standard Warn. GP's of course being stronger, but with the Warn we now exactly what tolerances to make. This we cannot find out with GP without having there tophousing. And further we're not doing this to make a GP rip-off..

[simonr]

Or did you machine something with the internal splines allowing it to fit over the rear motor?

That's how it worked. You can machine an internal spline easily by drilling a ring of holes then machining the middle out. I have a program on the mill for it and it works really nicely. It only engages with every other spline - but that's plenty.

The collet is short enough that the two shafts touch one another - so the adapter could not be any shorter without cutting the end off the spline.

Every other way of doing it involves modifying one motor.

Si

[Soren Frimodt]

Thanks for the explanation, now I can picture how you did it in my head.

It is a very good idea, and I even think we would be able to make those internal splines on my mates work with some of their new machines.

Maybe we will use this idea next time around. But it will get a bit wider than what we already have, 'cause we cut away the splines. but it'll probably be fine in most applications.

I'm still undecided as what to do to my "Baby" 8274 on the 80" I'm not really sure I will need the doublemotor that much because of the light weight of the car.

And it really worries me that no matter how you do it, doublemotor is ALWAYS heavy! Hmm.. maybe one could machine a housing in Ali for the motor instead? It doesn't have to be Iron does it?

[simonr]

It doesn't have to be Iron does it?

It doesn't HAVE to be, but being ferrous, it increases the field strength - so an Aluminium motor body would produce less torque. It may be that the extra copper required to give the same strength weighs more than the Iron?

I think it's just something you have to live with! Having said that, I'm not convinced the architecture and form factor of winch motors is ideal. The design of electric winches is stuck in a rut - and needs a bit of a shake-up IMHO.

Si

[tuf045]

It doesn't HAVE to be, but being ferrous, it increases the field strength - so an Aluminium motor body would produce less torque. It may be that the extra copper required to give the same strength weighs more than the Iron?

I think it's just something you have to live with! Having said that, I'm not convinced the architecture and form factor of winch motors is ideal. The design of electric winches is stuck in a rut - and needs a bit of a shake-up IMHO.

Si

i would agree with what your saying, because when you look at the brushless motors of r/c cars they are alot better than there bushed counterparts, more torque more hp and heaps more response and revs which would be great for a winch!

I wonder if there are big enough motors brushless?

[simonr]

I wonder if there are big enough motors brushless?

Nearly!

Si

[Soren Frimodt]

Okay Si, well too bad would like to have shred some weight there, but now that you explain it, it actually is quite obvious.

But if I turn down the thickness of the housing by, say a mill., would this ruin the torque as well you think? 'cos the way I see it, it is plenty strong even if it was thinner..

[simonr]

would this ruin the torque as well you think?

Yup!

A magnetic circuit is just the same as an electrical one - except Iron is one of the best magnetic conductors.

Just like if you use thinner wire to connect your winch, you will increase the resistance and reduce the performance - it's the same deal with the casing!

Si

[Soren Frimodt]

You really know how to turn down a guys hopes huh?

Just kiddin' of course, appreciate the info. So I won't really be able to loose any weight in the motor, without loosing performance.

Just can't decide whether to rebuilt the 24v motor and convert the car to 24v's or buy a Bow2 12v. The 24v works a whole lot better imho and I wouldn't mind the car being 24v either as I'm very pleased to have it on my Mog. We once had a "winch dragrace" with a 2,5hp 12v VS a 2,5hp 24v. and the 24v really kicked the 12v's a$$. And since I already have that motor I could throw the cash towards a larger alternator instead of a new motor. BUT it would of course be easier to just buy and install a Bow2 12v.

The reason why I'm not thinking about running both 12v and 24 systems, 12v for the car and 24v for the winch, is that I just think that would be an unnecessary weight gain. Having to have 3 batteries alone is just crazy on this little thing.