Bumpyride Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Gents I wonder if you maybe able to help me. I have a 200tdi engine fitted into a 2.5na vehicle which currently won’t start – which I duly found out on Christmas morning. Anyhow, the engine normally runs fine, and starts on the first attempt – no matter how cold it is. So no indication of any troubles ahead. However the current situation is that there is no attempt to start – by which I mean no rotation or noise from the starter motor / no relay clicks etc. Originally I had presumed the battery, however the voltage is 12volt across the terminals, and the lights are fine – normal brightness. PLUS It is a new Tanya unit. Plus I’ve have taken it to Halfords – for the free test – this it past no problems with enough power to start a tank according to them! Therefore my attention turned to wiring, as previously mentioned I have a 2.5 na wiring set up and thus no glow plug timer relay – I just hold the key in for a few seconds before engaging the starter motor. So my wiring has the red+white running from the ignition switch direct to the starter motor – which I understand to be the energising link for the starter motor solenoid. I have checked the red-white voltage and get 12v when turning the key at the ignition switch, I also hear the click and see 12volt at the terminals of the brake check relay – which I directly wired into the same wire. The glow plugs also receive 12volt upon trying to start via the brown and red wire. So it looks like the solenoid is receiving excitation. – but I hear no sound of it moving. Secondly when I try to start – if I have the lights on I do see a slight dimming – which to me suggests that the starter motor is receiving the direct supply of current from the battery am I correct in thinking that for this to occur the solenoid needs to move or does the solenoid just mechanically engage the motor pinion? Regardless would I expect to hear the noise of the solenoid moving? Does anybody have any suggestion on the next move? – despite removing the heat shield I’m finding it hard to get to the red + white terminal on the starter motor - to ensure that its receiving voltage. cheers in advance - apologies if the post is a little long! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinspragg Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I doubt it is a problem with the glow plugs because you say it will not crank over so it has something to do with your starter motor. First thing to check is the battery and you say it passed the load test so then I would check the battery terminals and all the earth straps, remove them clean them up and re-attach with some grease to keep the water out. You say it starts from cold but theses sort of start problems can be misleading it may be a poor connector being temperamental. Finally if all else fails you will need to look over the starter motor, take it off and clean it up. If this is no good it is time to look for a replacement starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumpyride Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Cheers Martin when I try to start – if I have the lights on I do see a slight dimming – which to me suggests that the starter motor is receiving the direct supply of current from the battery am I correct in thinking that for this to occur the solenoid needs to move or does the solenoid just mechanically engage the motor pinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Cheers Martin when I try to start if I have the lights on I do see a slight dimming which to me suggests that the starter motor is receiving the direct supply of current from the battery am I correct in thinking that for this to occur the solenoid needs to move or does the solenoid just mechanically engage the motor pinion? The solenoid connects the battery to the starter motor (it's a 1000A relay in effect) but at the same time it pulls the starter dog / pinion outwards and into engagement with the gear ring on the flywheel. The dimming but lack of whirring suggests that the solenoid is stuck (or, if there is a faint "clonk" as you turn the key) that the battery is low. I am envious of your ability to start it normally with no glow plugs ... There is another very similar thread running here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumpyride Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Had a further investigation this morning - bonnet off to allow better access. Plus i have cleaned and greased all contacts The Feed from the ignition is providing 12volt to the solenoid coil, when attempting to start, if tested with the ignition wire off of the starter motor. However if repeated with the wire connected to the solenoid coil and again trying to start then the voltage drops to around 9-9.5 volts. To me this seems to be a bit low as if it is a problem with the battery, not having enough power to shuttle the solenoid? What do you think? Still no noise from the solenoid coil moving etc. If we were to assume the Coil was stuck - ive read the section in the manual, but before i remove are there any tricks to try to make it unstick? I've tried a light tapping of the casing of the starter and solenoid. cheers guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I've tried a light tapping of the casing of the starter and solenoid. You could try a slightly oversize rearward blow axially to the forward end of the motor , it might free up, but with those readings I'm sticking to a low battery! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumpyride Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 cheers errol, arming myself with a large fixing stick, if no luck then i'll admit defeat a purchase a battery charger! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idris Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Is the engine free to turn? If no antifreeze then a frozen water pump can frustrate even the best of stater motors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumpyride Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Unfortantly the hammer didn't have the desired effect, no movement of the solenoid yet. strange you should mention the engine being free to turn, had a similar thought myself, other than engaging gear and trying to push it - which i couldn't manage! am i being a little thick and missing the obvious way to check this? Secondly wired up a spare starter motor from the same battery and the solenoid goes in no problem, however the volts do drop from 12.2v to 11.2volt when the solenoid is energised - which still makes me think the battery could be questionable. Also wired the starter motor solenoid up direct from the battery via a switch to make sure there wasn't excessive resitance in the wiring- this had no effect either. Then finally tried connecting the LR via jump leads to a Vauxhal Corsa battery and tried to start (with Corsa running) in effect jump starting with the LR battery out of circuit. So do you think its reasonable to conclude the Solenoid is definatley stuck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4ledbury Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 getting the starter off a retro fit 200tdi. is a job and a half you cant get at it for a start. ive never done it but to me it looks well awkward it was hard enough connecting the wires up to it. let alone taking the motor off still if you got a low battery it would turn the engine a bit when it cant turn the engine you hear a clicking noise from dash . im no expert but it aint the battery at fault try jumping it off another car see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 hi ive got two sugestions, firstly if you connect the multimeter accross the battery and the turn the key to start what is the reading on the multimeter, anything lower than 10volts the battery is probably dead but you could try charging then repeating the test. How did halfrauds check the battery? My second sugestion is to clamp a jump lead securely to the starter casing and then to the battery negative terminal to make sure there isn't an earth problem. as for turning the engine have you got a socket large enough for the front crank pulley nut? HTH matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumpyride Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 matt cheers for the comments 1: voltage drops to 11.2v 2: done this with no effect 3: have socket will try in the week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 matt cheers for the comments 1: voltage drops to 11.2v 2: done this with no effect 3: have socket will try in the week Changed my mind - dud solenoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 hi i'll second what errol said, you will have to remove the starter but taking it apart and cleaning up the solenoid should get it going again but do check it on the floor first cause you don't want to be doing it twice Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Hi guys, just had a similar starter problem on my 200Tdi, I took the starter off the other day and found it was frozen solid, it had some water that had frozen and stuck the motor contacts amongs other things... had to leave it somwhere warm before i could actually dismantal it fully. Tottaly cleaned the unit and its now ready to go back in minus the water and plus a lot more greese. We've been having temps down to -15 up here and the whole thing is freezing up. Just a suggestion. Mav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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