dirtyninety Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Right, I'm currently trying to fathom out what components I need to run two (eventually) hydraulic winches and hydraulic steering. I've read Bull Bar Cowboys milemarker threads, and spent a lot of time on Pirate 4x4 but Im still a little clueless. I dont know what kind of hydraulic winch I actually want yet, This one from Red Winches looks good. But then again I could go milemarker for less money. And what really throws a spanner in the works is me wanting hydraulic steering. (My vehicle IS NOT road legal in anyway, nor will it ever be.) I understand from the FirstFour website that 26cc is acceptable to run a MM and Red winch, but I would want it to be faster than standard and to be able to run hydraulic steering simultaneously. So what kind of pump can stand up to the full rev range of a 200tdi? (It will be either mini prop or toothed belt driven) How would I make my steering more predictable? Kind of hoping a Hydraulics Guru will help me out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick the digger! Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 keep the stock pump for the steering, modify it to give better flow/ more pressure... or up grade to a ZF74. fit a 20cc-28cc pump for the winch alone, bigger is not always better from what I under stand...maybe look at a twin stage HI/LOW pump. most hydraulic gear pumps have a max rpm of 3000, but they all seem to last fine being over revved form time to time. I'm sure a grown up will be along shortly with more precise answers..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuman Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I'm in the same boat as you at the moment. I've just finished my PTO milemarker install. It's still running the Whites motor and while it works well I know it can do better, plus I'm limited to 100bar (motor limit) when the rest of the system is capable of 200bar. From experience, I prefer the engine driven setup over PTO pure because drive assist is far more simple and far less to think about than the PTO setup. But PTO suits my truck usage far more (recovery and general dragging things around rather than comp) I've written an excel spread sheet that might help you, some of the calcs are not right and is still a work in progress, but just edit the blue boxes to get answers http://www.greenway-services.co.uk/winch/hydraulic_winch_calc_v1.xls bare in mind it's written mostly for PTO use some suitable pumps and motors can be found in these brouchers from flowfit motors http://www.greenway-services.co.uk/winch/EPM_Motors.pdf pumps http://www.greenway-services.co.uk/winch/Gear_Pumps.pdf I've currently got a galtech 22c or 26cc pump and think a 160cc motor @ 190-200bar is the best balance for me, currently the whites motor is 253cc @ 100bar, pulls well but is holding the system back Hope that helps Cheers Ruu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 If you keep somewhere between a 26 to 30 cc pump group 2 form you wont be far wrong, if you move up to a group 3 you will stall the engine even in a mildly stuck situation, gear the pump down to avoid over reving it, a gear pump will stand over reving but wont last for ever doing it, best way to gear down is via a duplex chain and sprocket set up driven from a adapter on the crank pulley, use a dog clutch to disengage drive to pump when not needed, do a bit of searching on motors as higher speed is less torque so not ideal, No mater what pump set up you go for or what hydro winch you have you can only speed it up so much, the 2 speed winch's in high speed are only good for approx 1 ton pull in high speed so great for getting rope in fast but not so brill if you are well stuck, On the other hand if you are stuck in a deep Irish peat bog with a hydro in low speed you can pull yourself and a truck with a burnt out 8274 set up through it with no effort, if you want out and out speed with a great amount of power go for a gigglepin but if you want unbeatable power go for hydro, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyninety Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 keep the stock pump for the steering, modify it to give better flow/ more pressure... or up grade to a ZF74. fit a 20cc-28cc pump for the winch alone, bigger is not always better from what I under stand...maybe look at a twin stage HI/LOW pump. most hydraulic gear pumps have a max rpm of 3000, but they all seem to last fine being over revved form time to time. I'm sure a grown up will be along shortly with more precise answers..... Thats an interesting way to do it, that would allow me to disengage the winch pump and still have my hydraulic steering. Also it would keep my hydraulic steering very simple. So I should perhaps buy THIS and then use the ZF74 for my steering and buy THIS to drive my winch. I'm in the same boat as you at the moment. I've just finished my PTO milemarker install. It's still running the Whites motor and while it works well I know it can do better, plus I'm limited to 100bar (motor limit) when the rest of the system is capable of 200bar. From experience, I prefer the engine driven setup over PTO pure because drive assist is far more simple and far less to think about than the PTO setup. But PTO suits my truck usage far more (recovery and general dragging things around rather than comp) I've written an excel spread sheet that might help you, some of the calcs are not right and is still a work in progress, but just edit the blue boxes to get answers http://www.greenway-services.co.uk/winch/hydraulic_winch_calc_v1.xls bare in mind it's written mostly for PTO use some suitable pumps and motors can be found in these brouchers from flowfit motors http://www.greenway-services.co.uk/winch/EPM_Motors.pdf pumps http://www.greenway-services.co.uk/winch/Gear_Pumps.pdf I've currently got a galtech 22c or 26cc pump and think a 160cc motor @ 190-200bar is the best balance for me, currently the whites motor is 253cc @ 100bar, pulls well but is holding the system back Hope that helps Cheers Ruu Thats excellent thankyou very much! If you keep somewhere between a 26 to 30 cc pump group 2 form you wont be far wrong, if you move up to a group 3 you will stall the engine even in a mildly stuck situation, gear the pump down to avoid over reving it, a gear pump will stand over reving but wont last for ever doing it, best way to gear down is via a duplex chain and sprocket set up driven from a adapter on the crank pulley, use a dog clutch to disengage drive to pump when not needed, do a bit of searching on motors as higher speed is less torque so not ideal, No mater what pump set up you go for or what hydro winch you have you can only speed it up so much, the 2 speed winch's in high speed are only good for approx 1 ton pull in high speed so great for getting rope in fast but not so brill if you are well stuck, On the other hand if you are stuck in a deep Irish peat bog with a hydro in low speed you can pull yourself and a truck with a burnt out 8274 set up through it with no effort, if you want out and out speed with a great amount of power go for a gigglepin but if you want unbeatable power go for hydro, Carl. Thanks for that Carl, Im looking for reliability that doesnt break the bank. For the price of two gigglepins I could.. well everyone knows how incredibly expensive they are! I can see my front hydro winch install, being less than 2000 quid another only the cost of the winch, pipe and valves. So infact i could end up with two winchs for less than the price of a single gigglepin. This is my first challenge truck build, so im not aiming to win any races at the moment, just get onto the scene and complete a couple of challenges! Another question, does a milemarker fit into a 8274 winch mount? Thanks, more input welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moose Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 keep the stock pump for the steering, modify it to give better flow/ more pressure... How have/could you modify the stock pump? sounds interesting..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saley Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Another question, does a milemarker fit into a 8274 winch mount? Thanks, more input welcome! No a MM won't but a SALEY will PM sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyninety Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 I shall be in contact soon John (probably tomorrow) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj_4x4 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks for that Carl, Im looking for reliability that doesnt break the bank. For the price of two gigglepins I could.. well everyone knows how incredibly expensive they are! I can see my front hydro winch install, being less than 2000 quid another only the cost of the winch, pipe and valves. So infact i could end up with two winchs for less than the price of a single gigglepin. You can install two hydraulic winches for less then a twin giggle pins, and with the right setup have more power, speed and a better duty cycle. I can vouch for the quality of the RED winch and unlike to the Milemarker the high gear is more then usable. The last winch challenge I did was mainly done in high gear, low get used for general recovery, and when you need to be delicate like bending trailing arms back into shape I've found 26cc pump (engine driven) and 160cc motor gave me the best all round performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 No a MM won't but a SALEY will PM sent A few pics of said winch. Alan Kemp, front and rear saley winch, saley Barrie Gee and his little tomcat, front and rear saley winch Rob tunah, mitsimog, front and rear saley winch Fat Bloke on left, Saley, and me on right, first ever of the 'Saley' Hydraulic 2 speed air free spool fully run through bearings, bomb proof winch. We made this as there was no good hydraulic winchs on the market, it has now been out there for a while and is more than suitable for the toughest of winch challenge events, Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saley Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thanks for the pic's slim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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