Snagger Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Hi folks. Does anyone know of any other mounting vibration dampers that can be used on a 200Tdi Defender engine - I'm getting sick of the vibration transmitted to the chassis at idle.. I have been told of Ford Transit mountings with oil filled hollow rubber, but haven't managed to find any details. I was also wondering if any polyurethane bush company has made substitute mountings, as this would seem a very good sales opportunity, given the number of retrofits into Series vehicles and pre-Defender 90s and 110s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chadler Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Are yours genuine parts? I fitted britpart mounts and surprise surprise they are plop. Loads more vibration than genuine, must be the rubber compound used? I would say buy new genuine and it'll be as good as it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 How bad is it?? i do not find mine bad, well it no worse then the 2.3 it replaced, or are you expecting merc type smoothness..................?? G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 They are genuine 2.5/Tdi mountings. I have also tried genuine SIII diesel mountings with no improvement. The vibration is fairly significant at idle, but is gone at 900rpm+. I never had any vibration problems with the 12J and had relatively little trouble initially with the Tdi, but the mounting rubbers were twisted because Marsland had fitted the right side chassis bracket 1/2" too far aft. I fixed that without damaging the chassis by removing the rhs engine bracket (2.5/Defender type), welding up the two bolt holes and drilling new ones 1/2" further forward, so the rubbers are all unstressed except for the compression from the engine weight. The distorted rubbers were replaced with new pattern then genuine parts at that point. Since doing that, the idling vibration has been a bit of a problem. The steering column shakes and makes a racket unless the steering wheel has light pressure applied to it (any direction), the gear stick rattles a bit and the sunroof vibrates visibly (estimated vertical movement of 2-3mm). As soon as the rpm is increased a little (too much to increase the idle screw), it all disappears and the vehicle is comparatively civilised for a SIII... I have tried adding a steel plate and RRC front axle vibration damper, and this has helped a little. I spoke to Richard at Glencoyne, and he has a plausible suspicion that the lighter SIII transmission (compared to the mass of the LT77 and LT230) may be the problem, so I'm now wondering about fitting mass dampers to the back of the transmission, much like LR did on the TD5 Defenders. I do think slightly softer engine mounts might help, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 No mine is not that bad, my rubbers are of unknown origin, and probably pattern parts. I have the lt77 and lt230, so i cannot actually compare according to your findings. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Series Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Snagger I have just bought some mountings from Glencoyne which he was advertising on ebay as especially suited for 200tdi conversion these are much softer rubber than the OEM ones I had purchased to replace the petrol ones fitted hopefully will get them on in a couple weeks time . My engine is just a 15J but since rebuild [Marsland Chassis]vibration is way worse than before rebuild. Do you have measurements of where engine mount should be might be worth me checking mine , not that I noticed any problem with mountings. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Hi Doug. Richard sells OEM 2.5/Tdi rubbers as he found (as many others including me did) that many pattern parts have harder rubber, so yours should be either Gen Parts or from the same manufacturer. I don't have any useful measurements, but it was very noticeable that the chassis brackets were wrong - the engine rubbers had a severe distortion, with one bent forward and one aft. I looked at the transmission rubbers and also the engine position in the vehicle, and it was clear which bracket was at fault. With that bracket removed, and the others slackened, the engine and transmission was able to sit further forward and relieve the stresses on the three "correct" mounts. I could then fit the offending rubber and engine bracket without attaching it to the block to measure the longitudinal misalignment, which was exactly 1/2". The thing is, the all four are really in the wrong position, even now they all have the correct spacing from each other - I had real problems fitting my Tdi as I couldn't get clearance between the turbo elbow and the left foot well. It transpires that they fitted the engine mountings and gear box cross member in the 2.6 position (roughly 2" further aft), despite me ordering a chassis for a standard transmission and engine position with engine mounts for 2.5 engines (the gear box cross member and left bracket should have been standard 4-cyl 109, and only the right engine bracket of different spec). I managed to get everything to fit by having an 8mm spacer plate milled to raise the turbo up from the exhaust manifold, so everything is now clear from the engine, so this still doesn't explain the idling vibration. Apparently, TD5s vibrate quite a bit with their LT230 damper removed (bolts on to the PTO aperture cover). I have been given one from a scrapped TD5 Discovery by Rogers of Bedford. The bolt holes need radial elongation to match the smaller PCD of the Series PTO bolts, but, hopefully, it'll be a simple addition. If it makes a difference, I'll notch the mounting plate to allow it to fit the Roverdrive when that goes back on. While I was at Rogers, I also managed to get some 300Tdi mountings from a scrapped chassis. The rubber compound on these and on the TD5 Discovery's transmission mounts is far softer than the 200Tdi engine mounts. Series vehicles used the same rubbers on all four points (two for the engine and two for the transmission), either relatively small circular ones for petrol models or larger square ones with stiffer rubber (same as the 2.5 engine rubber) and sturdy steel encasement for diesels. I am wondering about my transmission mountings - I currently have SIII diesel rubbers fitted, but I'm wondering if fitting the petrol rubbers I have in my garage drawers might help - Defenders and Discoverys use much smaller rubbers for their transmissions than their engines, made of the same softer rubber, so their transmission mountings obviously have more "give" than the engine rubbers do. Perhaps the stiff diesel rubbers on my transmission are part of the problem, which still ties up with Glencoyne's suspicions of the transmission absorbing less of the vibration on Series vehicles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 200Tdi Defender transmission mounts are the same as the engine mounts. ANR1808 all-round. I found that after changing the transmission mounts I had a bad vibration, but then it went away after a few days. I can only assume that the rubbers were 'bedding in' as it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Maybe that buggers my theory, then. Still, LR must have had a reason for fitting smaller mounts on the 300Tdi and later transmissions and fitting the mass damper to the D2. Since I have the parts, it's probably worth a try. Perhaps I should first just try slackening the rubbers' nuts, running and revving the engine for a couple of minutes and then tightening them up, just in case they settle differently like yours did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Perhaps yes. I think it's worth changing the transmission rubbers for the more supple petrol ones too, before any more drastic measures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 I've just had a sudden recollection: my injection pump was rebuilt at the same time as did the engine, and I asked the agent to make sure it would run happily on SVO. As I fuzzily remember it, he said that involved using certain heavy duty internal component in the pump and slightly advancing its timing. The belt and pulleys are set spot on with the standard tooling, but if the pump itself has been callibrated slightly advanced for SVO, which I no longer use, then the fuel injection itself must need slight retardation. It might just be that the engine itself is slightly lumpy, not the rubbers themselves... From playing about with the timing on my 12J, I recall how the engine seemed smoother with the timing retarded and harsher when advanced, though it never caused the vehicle to vibrate. What do you think? Does it seem a likely contributor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco-Ron Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 IN my mind, very likely, my suspicion all along has been engine related rather than mount, hence why i originally mentioned idle rpm....... any engine, diesel or petrol will run slightly smoother a little retarded, on my old 1929 Morris, i have a manual engine retard lever, with it retarded it runs slightly slower, and smoother, only really use the retarded position for starting it.... sommetimes with a handle! .... if yours is slightly too advanced, is it easy to start..?? as advancing engines in general makes them more 'peaky' to start.... and a little harsh when cold... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 IN my mind, very likely, my suspicion all along has been engine related rather than mount, hence why i originally mentioned idle rpm....... any engine, diesel or petrol will run slightly smoother a little retarded, on my old 1929 Morris, i have a manual engine retard lever, with it retarded it runs slightly slower, and smoother, only really use the retarded position for starting it.... sommetimes with a handle! .... if yours is slightly too advanced, is it easy to start..?? as advancing engines in general makes them more 'peaky' to start.... and a little harsh when cold... It starts instantly, even during the recent -10oC snap - not even a full second of cranking. It does chuck out a single plume of greyish-black smoke on initial start, but is completely clean (to the eye) thereafter, but my standard 300Tdi does the same. I do remember how much easier the 12J was to start when retarded, but I got that set up right and got instant starts out of that too, even in sub-zero conditions, by paying close attention to the fuel injector pipes and spill lines, particularly the latter - most cold starting problems seem not to be temperature related but time standing related; long periods unused allows air to enter the injection system through weak seals on the injector pipes, spill rail and filter housing, allowing the fuel level to slowly drain down and requiring longer cranking to self-bleed and pressurise the injection system. Get the system airtight and starting tends to be very reliable, unless the compression is really bad. I used the SIII diesel rubbers with the 12J, and like I said, the vehicle never suffered when I advanced the timing, but IDI diesels aren't as harsh as DI. I suppose it'd be the best place to start. Thanks for all your help, folks - you're a useful source of ideas and a good sounding-board to kick ideas around with. If anyone comes up with any other ideas, please shout out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Series Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Good point made I have two injector pipes which are weeping through corrosion will get them renewed to see if engine vibrations reduce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garymv Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 give me the part numbers and I'll try to help with info on the manufacturers. cheers Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Series Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Fitted the Disco engine mounts from Glencoyne today has made a lot of difference the Petrol Series one's I had on where very stiff by comparison. Nearside one needed trimming to fit. Offside one needed edge trimming to lie flat on bbase bracket I took 3/8" off but a 1/4" would have done it. Just got to get my injector pipes renewed now, and fit my Range rover series Hybrid front propshaft which I also managed to assemble today needs a coat of paint and then fitting on {I had issue with prop to short due to parabolics this ends up 1/2" longer and wider angled Some one on this forum's idea not mine} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Serious Series, those are 90/110 2.5 mounts, as used on the Defender 200Tdi. The Discovery mounts use much bigger brackets and are shaped like an enormous suspension bush with most of the rubber removed, the inner steel tube connecting to the outer tube by a small section only, the whole thing orientated parallel to the crank shaft. they have much greater suppleness than these simple mountings which resemble the Series type. I spoke to the chap who rebuilt my injection pump and he confirmed it had been advanced for the Vegoil. I have retarded it by about two degrees and will have to see how that goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_s Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 i have the same issue on my series 3 - at idle the vibration is terrible, to the point that my CD player skips constantly. i changed to genuine parts defender 200tdi mounts, and it improved things a little, but not enough. i'm intrigued by the idea of a damper on the back of the gearbox, is it anything special or just a large lump of heavy stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 i have the same issue on my series 3 - at idle the vibration is terrible, to the point that my CD player skips constantly. i changed to genuine parts defender 200tdi mounts, and it improved things a little, but not enough. i'm intrigued by the idea of a damper on the back of the gearbox, is it anything special or just a large lump of heavy stuff? Yep - it's just a square block of steel with a round corner cut out rubber bonded to a steel plate with a quarter circle, following the curve of the cut-out in the mass block, with three bolt holes to attach to the rear bearing cover/PTO aperture of the LT230. I'll take some photos when my camera is charged. It's bolt holes don't match the Series' transfer box PTO studs, but slotting or redrilling the mounting should enable it to fit. How well it will work, or if it will work at all is anyones guess - obviously, these things are made to a specific mass that has a relationship to the mass and dimensions of the TD5, R380 and LT230 assembly and the harmonics of those, not the Series transmission and Tdi, but it was free and might help - fixing an 8mm steel plate and RRC front axle vibration damper to the timing case's aircon mounts helped a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Right - photos of the Discovery TD5 transmission mass damper, 300Tdi engine mountings and my steel plate and RRC axle mass damper (with Kenlowe Hotstart recently relocated on top of the steel plate). My thinking is that adding mass will lower the resonant frequency of the engine or transmission, so if the vibration is only an issue at the lowest (idle) rpm and thus at the lowest frequency, then lowering the resonant frequency further should reduce the vibration. The vibration dampers both have rubber mountings (the axle damper actually uses the same engine mounting as we are using for our Tdi retrofits between its L-bracket and the inside of its hollow dumb-bell), and these allow the mass to vibrate out of phase with the engine, cancelling some of the vibration out, so are more effective than plain lumps of steel or lead of similar mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilslick Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Hi, I'm new to the forum and just found this post, I've just got a 200tdi in my 11a SWB and the vibration is a real problem, I'm using britpart petrol mounts on the gearbox and NRC2052 diesel mounts on the engine. The steering wheel and pedals vibrate and at some speeds the rear view mirror is a blur. I think my problem is the mounts and I have coflicting advice: On one hand told to replace the gearbox mounts with NRC 2052, and on the other to replace the engine mounts with OE petrol ones or the better still? Transit mounts. I would be grateful for any advice as so far I've spent over £1000 and have a Land Rover thats a misery to drive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 The mounts to use are Bearmach's higher quality 19J/200Tdi units (apparently they do three grades). Glencoyne Engineering sell them on e-bay at a good price - I think I paid less than £20 including postrage and VAT. They cured the problem completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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