Julian Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Some years ago I removed one of the 3/4 synchro leaf springs from the drain hole when changing the oil, a very common problem I understand but surprisingly it doesn't seem to cause any problems..... Anyway spurred on by this thread: http://forums.lr4x4....showtopic=72405 I decided to repair it as I figured that it would probably be indicative of the condition of the rest of the box internals. I got a series three box off the ebay as I decided I would be better fixing that one up and then swap it thus minimising landroverless existence! It's apart now, not too bad I don't think and seems to be in slightly better nick than Gazzar's. Right, first question, it's a 576730R, which is (as I understand it) a factory rebuilt suffix A box? The trouble is that the reverse gear has a needle roller bearing and I read in the above link that suffix A boxes can't have this fitted...... It's for suffix B boxes onwards. I have the luxury of the genuine Landrover parts book and that shows a 'reverse gear modification kit' but oddly it appears to show a reverse gear with plain bush. I could do with sorting this as the reverse cog is in bad shape, due I suspect to the leaf spring going through it, and the reverse cog shaft also has a nasty looking bit on it where the roller bearing goes so it all needs replacing. Any pointers? Cheers Julian (aka confused.com!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Would the plate with the part number be on the bellhousing? if so the bellhousing has at some time been swapped from a recon A suffix to a B or later, maybe because recon had died and the B or later box possibly a SH unit was a 6 pot and they wanted a 4 pot.. So does the 1st gear have the same size helical teeth as the 2nd and 3rd gears have? Do the dog teeth inside 1st, 2nd & 3rd have straight sides or are they stepped? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 5, 2012 Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 Would the plate with the part number be on the bellhousing? if so the bellhousing has at some time been swapped from a recon A suffix to a B or later, maybe because recon had died and the B or later box possibly a SH unit was a 6 pot and they wanted a 4 pot.. So does the 1st gear have the same size helical teeth as the 2nd and 3rd gears have? Do the dog teeth inside 1st, 2nd & 3rd have straight sides or are they stepped? Thanks for the reply Phil. The answers to the questions you ask are as follows: Yes, the part number was taken from a plate riveted to the bellhousing Yes, first gear has helical cut gears 3/4 synchro hub teeth are straight sided and not coffin shaped. Regards Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 So we are looking at a B or C at the moment so to narrow it more. How do the sizes of the helical teeth compare between 1st and 2nd/3rd? The same size on all or bigger on 1st? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 So we are looking at a B or C at the moment so to narrow it more. How do the sizes of the helical teeth compare between 1st and 2nd/3rd? The same size on all or bigger on 1st? Thanks again Phil, I'd say the teeth look bigger on 1st, but I did a picture for you to see: You can see some wear on the reverse gear hear too, I'm hoping that it's OK given how much time you spend in reverse? The reverse idler gear is in very bad shape and needs replacing. Cheers Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Thats a C suffix then, i personally would change the layshaft with the reverse teeth like that, as it would not do the new idler any good at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 Thats a C suffix then, i personally would change the layshaft with the reverse teeth like that, as it would not do the new idler any good at all. Thanks again, I was a bit afraid that you may say change the layshaft Besides all the bearings and bushes the first gear needs changing as the dogs are pretty chewed, one is almost gone though you can't really see on that photo and also the 3/4 synchro inner sleeve is also pretty mangled. I'm thinking that I've got a fair parts bill coming as that layshaft looks expensive? What's best for parts? There's no way that I'm buying any shietpart item to go in the gearbox, not ever ever ever ever!!! Too many bad experiences from the blue boxed carp they sell :-( I've just ordered the ball and roller bearings from Simplybearings as I can get decent SKF ones. But what about the other stuff like gears and synchros, can you still get it all after all these years? There's the main agents, but I suspect they'd laugh at me as they only want to sell RR Sports to WAGS. Bearmach seem to get good reports and Landranger in Middlewich is near enough to me and Bearmach list them as an agent. All in all I'd be very grateful for and advice or suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondjeremy Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 I'm in the course of rebuilding one at the moment - I'd just convinced myself that it was a suffix 'C' - when I found a large 'C' stamped on the primary shaft. Might be worth a look. Strangely my reverse gear has a badly damaged tooth - I've bought a Bearmach replacement which looks excellent and comes compete with the needle bearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 7, 2012 Author Share Posted June 7, 2012 I'm in the course of rebuilding one at the moment - I'd just convinced myself that it was a suffix 'C' - when I found a large 'C' stamped on the primary shaft. Might be worth a look. Strangely my reverse gear has a badly damaged tooth - I've bought a Bearmach replacement which looks excellent and comes compete with the needle bearing. Couldn't find any stamped 'C's.' I think the damage on my reverse gear was caused by the leaf spring from 3/4 synchro going through it - I wonder if your is the same? Anyway, I've ordered all the bits from Landranger and should be with me tomorrow, including a new layshaft. I faxed them the part numbers and gave them explicit instructions to avoid any Britpart stuff! I'm expecting the bearings tomorrow from simplybearings,co,uk. Now all I need is some suitable Loctite for the rear input shaft bearing housing to stop oil migrating to the transfer box.... Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondjeremy Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Yes someone's been at my gearbox before. I think I've seen other examples of his work which is why I've stripped the thing - which generally seems very good. So its all new bearings, gaskets, seals, springs and the reverse gear and it'll go back together again, hopefully to be swung into my S3 one fine day next week. I think it must be the synchro spring which has done the damage to the reverse gear, somehow I think other parts have been replaced before as the synchro cones look very good as do the the 1st and 2nd engagement teeth. Also (which is quite rare) the 3 3rd/4th synchro springs were all in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 A bit of a conundrum has arisen :-( I got a new snap ring (for holding 1st and 2nd gear on the mainshaft. I expanded it the absolute minimum to get it on and down the splines but noticed that this has taken it past its elastic limit and is not a tight fit on the bottom of it's grove. I actually got two springs and so tried it twice and had the same result - ie you can move the clip around with a small screwdriver. I don't know if I'm fussing too much and it will be OK or should I go off in search of a snap ring made from a better spring steel - as I see it (either on the over-run or drive) it takes the side load from the helical cut gears and it coming off would be disastrous! Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 My experience and so advice is for that part ONLY GENUINE will do, pattern are soft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Thanks Phil, I'll take your advice and get a Landrover one on Monday, I'm still awaiting some bearings so it's no big deal. http://www.lrdirect.com/RTC1957-Mainshaft-Spring-Ring/ Do Pukka LR ones for about £4.15 I may even try the dealers on Monday with the part number. Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondjeremy Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Fitted a Bearmach one on Friday without problems. I was dreading it as I've had enormous problems with the thing before but no trouble this time. The Genuine one from LR direct may well be for a bag of the things - hence the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 12, 2012 Author Share Posted June 12, 2012 Sorted! A proper quality snap ring from Guy Salmon (LR dealer) and in it went without any bother. I must have been given a Britpart thing made from poor quality spring steel :-( The casing is back on the bell housing now, the correct compliment of innards is inside and I can put my fingers down the top hole and engage the gears which I'm please to say are fine! I can also engage two gears and lock the box which is going to help me when I torque up the layshaft retaining bolt tomorrow! Just the selector forks to get back in, (adjust if necessary) top to go back on and Bob's your uncle Next up is the transfer box and the other housing. (don't know the proper name) I don't think much goes wrong there so maybe just new seals and a precautionary bearing or two? Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Front output housing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I've just noticed this thread, and I know you are past this point now, but what I was told when researching 'what box?', and 'why has the part number been ground out?', was that the original number was ground out on factory reconditioned boxes, because they were rebuilt to the standards of whatever version of box was current at the time, thus continued use of the original number would have been misleading. I don't have any corroborative evidence for this assertion; I haven't stripped the Factory Rebuilt box. However, on a Land Rover rebuild it seems logical that the 'latest and best' parts would be used. All that being said, having just looked at the pictures I took at the time, while the original number was ground out, the suffix F was left. It's conveniently positioned below the number. The label on the bell housing doesn't actually have space for a suffix letter, the space is full with a 6 character number. Cheers. PS, I should have said that 'my' box is in a Series 2A, which I haven't driven yet!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 The box is all back together now, all's well so I've moved onto the transfer box and front output housing. Just incase anyone hasn't bumped into the on-line pdf manuals then I found them here: http://www.landroverweb.com/landrover/pdf-land-rover-manuals/ I dowloaded them all onto the hard drive. Very useful indeed as it details how to 'trim' the bronze bushes to get the required end-float etc Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Transfer box and front output housing: No real bothers here. Thankfully the bearings on the high/low speed shaft were in good condition as one is listed as £125+VAT on Simplybearings Intermediate shaft needle rollers also good. The only bearing needing swapping was the front output shaft as it had got rusty and luckily a good branded one was £25. That bearing was rusty because of water getting in through this part: http://www.brit-car....php?xProd=78698 The selector shaft cover - it had rusted through into several holes. As it looks like I can get a replacement cover I'm going to try covering the holes with MIG wire in the morning, and if I bsugger it up then I have a solution. I tell you what, when you price up a number of decent (not Chinese carp) bearings and some internal components like synchro assemblies it makes you wonder how the gearbox re-conditioners do it for the money - especially when you stick time into the equation. Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Transfer box and front output housing: No real bothers here. Thankfully the bearings on the high/low speed shaft were in good condition as one is listed as £125+VAT on Simplybearings Intermediate shaft needle rollers also good. The only bearing needing swapping was the front output shaft bearing as it had got rusty and luckily a good branded one was £25. That bearing was rusty because of water getting in through this part: http://www.brit-car....php?xProd=78698 The selector shaft cover - it had rusted through into several holes. As it looks like I can get a replacement cover I'm going to try covering the holes with MIG wire in the morning, and if I bsugger it up then I have a solution. I tell you what, when you price up a number of decent (not Chinese carp) bearings and some internal components like synchro assemblies it makes you wonder how the gearbox re-conditioners do it for the money - especially when you stick time into the equation. Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexi Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I tell you what, when you price up a number of decent (not Chinese carp) bearings and some internal components like synchro assemblies it makes you wonder how the gearbox re-conditioners do it for the money - especially when you stick time into the equation Even with Blue box bearings which IMO are Chinese I suppose a box could last long enough to be sold fit for purpose by reconditioner. I believe the reconditioners either fit the cheap bearings or leave stuff in which is still good. It is either taking a chance or using their experience. I also don't believe that every bearing coming out of China is poor. Shanghai Bearing Co. is reputedly good stuff. I would only fit Proper branded in gearbox myself but I have fitted cheap Blue box elsewhere with no failures as yet. Even a good bearing on a boat trailer does not last long........and that is greasing regular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted June 16, 2012 Author Share Posted June 16, 2012 I also don't believe that every bearing coming out of China is poor. Shanghai Bearing Co. is reputedly good stuff. Sure, the Chinese can build the atom bomb and send spaceships into orbit - you can't do that with carp bearings! Some companies within China are obviously happy to build and fabricate to any price as dictated by the buyer. You get what you pay for, hence cheap price = nasty quality. If the board of directors of Britparts went to Timken and said ''make these bearings for £5.00 each for us to sell'' they would be politely told to eff off! Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 Just to finish off, the gearbox is now in, OD transferred over and a nice test drive with no issues, a nice tight feel to the gearshift (like an MGB) and no noises! With new bearings throughout, bushes, 3/4 synchro, layshaft, reverse gear and seals I'm hoping that it'll give me many years of good service. So far no oil leaks - which is more than can be said of the engine which always seems to leave a few black drops on the ground overnight..... Maybe I'll look out for a cheap 21/4 Diesel on the ebay for a re-build project this winter. Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexi Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 That is excellent Julian. There is a very late 5bearing diesel on ser11 forum for sale for scrap value...........runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Posted July 29, 2012 Author Share Posted July 29, 2012 That is excellent Julian. There is a very late 5bearing diesel on ser11 forum for sale for scrap value...........runner. Oh thanks, I didn't know about series 11 forum, I'll take a gander. There's far too many forums all doing the same thing really, just dilutes down the knowledge base! Julian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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